Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:08 Hi, this is fair with the date of the rebels. Um, we are here talking about dating with mental illness today, and we have Daniel Goldschmidt who is a Jewish white non-binary socialized as a man person with generalized anxiety disorder, ADHD and PTSD. He's a music therapist working with teenagers in a partial partial hospital, partial hospitalization program program, and, uh, teachers and teaches music therapist about white supremacy, pre white supremacy as a source of harm in our work, which is awesome. Daniel has been both monogamous and in polyamorous relationships. Welcome Danielle, uh, Paulina Paris sock. Did I fuck it up, but okay. Thank you. Uh, she, they, them is a first-generation immigrant from Asia first-generation college graduate, double majoring in history and pre-law she was diagnosed with both bipolar disorder, one with a mixed episodes in general, generalized anxiety. She is 41 years old and single, I can't fuck it. Talk today. You guys welcome Paulina. Hi, I, so we were just talking about, um, dating, dating and breaking up during the pandemic and the, um, the, uh, you know, do we have enough support and then, you know, having a mental illness, is there enough support with that?
Speaker 1 00:02:05 Yeah, the isolation I had, um, therapy session today and my therapist was like, cause I was feeling, I've been thinking about, you know, dating with bipolar and I've been thinking how there are so many other obstacles besides just having a mental illness. And then I was feeling, um, not normal. I don't like using, you know, to describe myself as not normal. And I was like telling my therapist how I felt like it's not normal, how hard I've been taking this recent breakup that I've had from like two weeks ago. I felt I went outside today before for the first time in two weeks. And usually, you know, you just feel better. I felt like I was dying inside. I just felt like my soul was crushing. And I was like, that's not a normal way to take a break up. And he was like, he was saying that how I started this pandemic, like the relationship in January, feeling isolated already. Um, and I'm still isolated after the breakup. I just feel like
Speaker 0 00:03:10 So alone. Well, from the things that you were telling me, it sounds like you might've been with a narcissist, which is also like a whole fuckery. And then it's like narcissistic abuse is y'all right.
Speaker 1 00:03:27 I'm not sure though, because I mean, I've been studying a lot about, you know, like it's like, uh, relationships are like a death. Like when they, when you break up, it's like you grieve and stuff. And I was like bargaining, but Nicole was like in denial first. Cause he didn't break up with me. It was just a break. So I'm like trying to think, okay, he gets moved on, he's found someone else. And now I was trying to be, you know, bargaining like with myself, trying to hate him, find reasons to hate him. But he is actually a loving person. We still talk a lot almost every day still. Um, he still says he loves me. I, I felt loved during the relationship and I still feel like he loves me. And I'm grateful for that. At least I don't. I think everyone, everyone has a little bit of narcissism in them cause like me act going, telling him like, no one's ever gonna love me. No one's ever going to love you as much as I did. That's a little bit of narcissism there to like try to like bring down the person to your level. That's what I learned. No, I don't think he's a narcissism and he's definitely an alcoholic though. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:04:35 It sounds a lot like just some codependent patterns on both sides and like, and I've, I've done that for years. I'm really working on it, but just like, especially in a pandemic, it's so easy to fall into this. Like I need you, you need me. We are together. Like the world is hard, you know, I feel, I mean, I'm sure when, when all these studies come out about the pandemic, I'd love to see like data on like codependency, like, cause I would bet a thousand dollars that it's going to, it's going to be much higher during the pandemic, you know, because where are we getting those good feelings? Where are we getting the dopamine and the oxytocin and the serotonin boosts, you know, not from the normal shit, you know? And like meds are cool and like going for a walk is nice, but like when you have something that works that easily and that effortlessly as someone you fall like immediately madly and like with, you know, it's tough to beat that.
Speaker 2 00:05:26 And so of course it's super painful when it stops. And of course it's super painful when, you know, the way you described it, he's saying something to you and, but like, and setting and basically setting boundaries on the relationship that he, he himself isn't keeping, which isn't fair, you know? And um, and it's totally, it's totally possible to love multiple people at once. It's totally doable. However, if it's not within the auspice of the, really the, the rules that you set in your relationship or whatever word you want to use, like that's painful and harmful, you know? Yeah. When I found out
Speaker 1 00:05:58 He was, you know, how bad has alcoholism is I w you know, told them, I was like, I don't want to fall into this same routine of becoming codependent because I have been with another person that was codependent. So I was very careful of that. But then it's hard to do, like you said, it's hard to do that during a pandemic when you're isolated, when you have just one person that you're supposed to be with, because you can't, you know, swap spit with multiple people.
Speaker 0 00:06:27 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:06:28 Yeah. And the other thing with my co-dependence or any of these things, and this kind of goes also into the greater mental health conversation with dating, is that like, I know for me with the experiences I've had and I, and in the bio didn't mention it, but, um, but I was in an abusive marriage, you know, which I learned a lot from, and I've had some other like traumatic stuff related to like intimacy and sexuality that I could have done all the work while I'm out here in single land. But then as soon as I'm on a date, as soon as I'm on a second date, as soon as like the first time we're being intimate, all that shit comes flooding back. And there's so many things you can't actually work on until you're in the saddle of a relationship. And it's so hard. And so for us, because I feel like I'm doing so well until that happens.
Speaker 0 00:07:10 And then how did, how do you like tell you,
Speaker 1 00:07:12 Like, I'm triggered as fuck? Like, how do you deal with it? You know? Well,
Speaker 2 00:07:18 And that's the thing where, you know, the hope is that, well, my hope with myself and something, I do feel like I've gotten better at is testing the waters ahead of time. Like I was on a date the other night and, um, and she was very nice. And, but I noticed that some of those, she didn't have a lot of language around mental health. She didn't have a lot of language around, um, even gender and things like that. And that's fine. That's totally cool that she's on that, but like, I'm not going to like open up then, like, I'm just, I'm not going to like, test the waters in a dangerous way. And, um, and so that was it, you know, I'm not gonna go on another date with her. You know, the challenge is the people who have the language vastly are the people who are actively dealing with the same things. And so then you get into that place where, you know, you want to be with someone who's done enough work, that you can safely date each other without being codependent, without trying to fix each other. Cause I also have a savior, like I've had a savior complex and past relationships too, you know? And so it's a lot to navigate and it, I don't know the answer. There's just this hope that someone has the language, but has done enough work that it's not dangerous for me or for them.
Speaker 0 00:08:29 Oh,
Speaker 1 00:08:29 Do you feel that your codependency is attributed to depression?
Speaker 2 00:08:38 Gosh, I don't know. I what's hard for me.
Speaker 2 00:08:48 Um, it, honestly, if I were to attribute it to any of my diagnoses, I would put it with ADHD anxiety actually, because with ADHD, there is something called, um, what's it called RSD, um, rejection sensitive dysphoria that, um, you know, folks with ADHD frequently like feel very rejected very quickly and it has this huge response. Um, but I also, um, and then also there's, I'm a hard caring extrovert and I want to feel loved and liked and wanted. And the easiest way to do that is to have a single person who does all that for me, you know? And, um, and so I've had really, and then also, you know, just some really shitty partners, like in my formative years who were, you know, planted some, some bad seeds in me. Like I had a partner who lied about everything all the time and I'm still having trouble with like, even any like issues with honesty.
Speaker 2 00:09:41 And it's really tough to get, like I've had to do a lot of work to like separate, um, dishonesty from just like, I don't need to know everything, you know, cause I don't need to know everything, but those, sometimes it triggers the same thing. You know, basically what it all boils down to is how do I take responsibility for my shit? And how do I find a partner who can do the same journey with each other and hold each other accountable. And that's, that's a tall order for both parties, but not project our shit on each other. And that,
Speaker 1 00:10:13 Yeah, I feel like I've been, co-dependent just once because I have avoidant, uh, my, my attachment style is avoidance. So it's really hard to be dependent on someone. I do the opposite thing, but I did date someone that is bipolar once and it was before I was diagnosed and he was, um, not medicated and he is bipolar too. And all we did was be depressed together. We were just feeding off of each other's depression. And I just recently reconnected with him like this week, after like eight years, I'm not talking. And I was like, I'm sorry, I was so bad. Like I thought it was horrible. Cause I have like bipolar rage where I can't see. I mean, like I think the miss understanding with bipolar is that people think it's rapid, rapid moods, like mood swings going up and down. But for me at least it's that when I feel happy, I'm extremely happy. And when I'm down, I'm depressed. I'm like suicidal. Like it's bad there's and when I'm in between, that's being stable. So we're just depressed together and feeling like we couldn't go outside, we're being Agra like agoraphobic together. And that, that relationship was only two months. And he was like, I'm so confused why you apologized? It wasn't that bad. He was like, I was on that bad. You weren't that bad. It was just like, neither of us were in that place to be dating anyone.
Speaker 2 00:11:44 Mm. So when you feel that you were super bad about that, is that something you more think about when you're in one of those down, down periods? Because that can, cause I'm just thinking about like when I'm in that more triggered space, like that's when I back to like things I've done and things I've said and like, Oh gosh, I was so horrible in that relationship and I, you know, or whatever, and I've done the same thing I've been like, I'm really sorry about whatever. And they're like, I really nothing's wrong. Like we had our ups and downs, it was normal, you know, but like I've like beaten myself up for it for ages, you know?
Speaker 1 00:12:16 Yeah. I just, I think the biggest challenge with having bipolar in a relationship is that when I get very angry, I should just put my phone away. Cause I get insulting. Like I just throw so many insults to this person. Cause there's my avoidance like attachment coming into play too, where I'm like go away for me. Like, I don't want you to hurt me. I don't want you to love me. But at the same time, there's also that rage. I'm like, I'm going to take out all my rage on this person. I mean, my dad was also bipolar and he did that too with, with us, with the kids.
Speaker 2 00:12:55 Yeah. And like in kind of the general, you know, uh, this, this podcast today, like, you know, that question is how do you take responsibility for like your own shit when it comes to mental health and relationship? Like what's that line? And I know that's something I've been exploring for ages, how much I need someone to be like to make space for my mental health issues versus what I need to just be a hundred percent autonomous on. And um, and some people believe in that a hundred percent autonomy. And I don't know that I do because it feels kind of inhumane at a certain point. Um, and I, and I was part of a polyamory like group when I lived in Colorado where they believed in a hundred percent autonomy and all relationships that like, you can have all your partners and you're all completely autonomous and no one gets to say anything about what anyone else is doing. And it's like, it felt too, it felt very patriarchal, honestly, um, that everything is, you know, literally they would have people, um, write manuals, like a manual to date me, which like is a fun idea, but like this idea that it was a record almost with what kind of gross me out. Um, and yeah, so, and so finding that balance that like is doable. That is that you can keep up with, but still is humane, but doesn't cross over to codependent where you're like needing someone to read your mind.
Speaker 1 00:14:14 What would your manual say
Speaker 1 00:14:20 Your mental health? Like for every mental health manual? Like for me, like I was trying to be open with this last partner because you know, this is the first person I fell in love with after being diagnosed from like six years ago. Like I haven't dated, I'm so avoided. Like I've had like less than 10 boyfriends, three people that I've been in love with. Um, but yeah, the last year's relationship I had was in 2013 and I thought I was ready and I obviously wasn't, uh, my manual for being bipolar. I would say go away from me when I'm manic, just take my phone away, take my credit cards away. I just need to go away. It's not because I don't want to be with you. It's because I'm afraid of what I'm going to say.
Speaker 1 00:15:07 And then depression for depression is like, when I'm depressed, please just love me. Don't leave me. How's when do you tell people? Oh, about having bipolar. Yeah. I found out that don't tell the person immediately because that just scares them away. There's this whole like bias of people with bipolar being crazy. Um, they'll they won't even give me a chance. I found out what I, when I was just talking to people online before they met me. So I'm not sure yet with this last person, I was very surprised because he was the first person that was like, not scared of it. He was like, Oh, I do well with people with bipolar, but I think he didn't know how bad mine can get. Cause you know, I was stable when I met him and I'm just telling them it gets really bad. Like I have hallucinations.
Speaker 2 00:16:10 I'm really interested in that. I do well with people with bipolar statement. Like almost like, what does that mean? You know,
Speaker 1 00:16:18 Other people that bipolar.
Speaker 2 00:16:19 Yeah. Um, to answer the question. So for me the ADHD and anxiety stuff, I don't feel that uncomfortable sharing pretty early on, but the PTSD stuff. That's where, so, okay. So I didn't get, so I lived in Colorado until two Novembers ago and, and then I moved back up here where I grew up and um, and I got diagnosed with PTSD like a few months later. And I, after that relationship that I was in Colorado, I took some time I dated myself for awhile, you know? And so I didn't start actually dating again, which AKA means the apps and like the zoom dates and whatever until the pandemic was like pretty firmly started. So, you know, March, April, neck of the woods. Um, and, and so that was my first time dating with that new diagnosis. And I was in a really rough, I mean, most of the pandemic that kind of like February to October, November, I was pretty, pretty dicey mental health wise.
Speaker 2 00:17:13 I was not doing well. And so when I was trying to date and stuff, I would start talking about the PTSD stuff in a first date. And I would trigger myself regardless of if that person was cool or pretty or fun or any of those things I was done at no fault of theirs. And so I realized that I needed to be way more careful with how I told my story. Um, if I was going to want to be able to date someone just on like, regardless of what they thought of me. Um, and so it's something that I've started kind of, you know, all kind of like sprinkle it, I'll say like I'm dealing with some trauma stuff, but I'm taking responsibility for it, you know? And I, I kinda try and take care of their feelings like preemptively in case they like to be able to play about it. Um, and I, and I, and I say, you know, but we'll, we'll get to that later. Like I kind of say like, we can talk about that another time, you know, because it gets that, it, it just, it makes me more uncomfortable and I project onto them. And so that's the one that I had to be really careful about.
Speaker 1 00:18:10 Yeah. I think it would be a good idea. Um, you just gave me an idea of like, when I tell people my mental illnesses to tell them what that means to like, with PTSD. Like, I didn't know this person, the last person I dated, he has alcoholism, but I don't think he knew that he had PTSD too. I mean, we found that out together because when he was asleep he would, um, he had night terrors and he would scream. He would, might be helped. He would say help me and all this stuff. And we both triggered each other what he was going through. Like tell people like what to expect with that.
Speaker 0 00:18:52 Um, yeah. Um, we're going to say something.
Speaker 1 00:19:00 Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of there's going to be a lot. It's going to be interesting to learn about all the new diagnosis that people are going to come out with post pandemic, even with mine, I'm like, I just have bipolar and anxiety and then like Daniel you're like saying, I think I have PTSD now. I think a lot of people are gonna come out of this with PTSD.
Speaker 0 00:19:24 Definitely.
Speaker 2 00:19:25 To be clear. I got the trauma stuff came from when I was in my master's degree. It wasn't from the pandemic itself just to clarify. Um, but I was suffering a lot during the pandemic. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:19:38 Yeah. I think a lot of stuff came up for a lot of people.
Speaker 1 00:19:41 Yeah. A lot of old things have surfaced and new things are going to be surfacing. Like I learned that I have abandonment issues during this pandemic. So I'm working through that too.
Speaker 0 00:19:56 Yeah. It's fucking rough man. But we're doing the work. I haven't gotten diagnosed with anything except for like childhood developmental childhood trauma, but there's definitely some PTSD in that. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:20:20 And I mean, there's a book called the body, keeps the score. That's like the go-to like book on trauma. That'd be there. Have you read that one? One of the things that talks about in it is that like, there's just this like one major umbrella, PTSD, diag like diagnosis and really there's multiple forms of trauma that are, that should be treated in different ways. And it's just, and it's just, hasn't gotten a lot of traction and there's some stuff with like, there's some like specific differences with like PTSD, like complex this or like types or whatever. But like by and large, it's still just that one set of letters. Whereas for children, PTSD shows up in these certain ways and instead they get diagnosed with, um, uh, obsessive compulsive disorder, oppositional defiant disorder, ADHD, all this stuff. And I've given them tons of meds for ADHD for this, that, and the other thing it's not working.
Speaker 2 00:21:08 And the reason why is because they don't have it, they don't have ADHD, they're having hyperactivity and, um, you know, or they're having, you know, inability to like, um, keep tasks and things like that because of trauma. And so there's, there's all this stuff with that. And so regardless of the actual like diagnosis, regardless of the actual thing that happens, it's like what's happening. And what does it feel like, and are you able to do and be what you want to do and want to be, and that's, and especially in dating, which is like so difficult already, you know, just, um, it gets real painful, real fast, especially when we don't have a lot of cultural language around mental health.
Speaker 3 00:21:48 Oh, sorry. Daniel, can you, uh, explain how your PTSD manifested? Hmm.
Speaker 2 00:21:56 As in like where it came from or like what I symptoms yeah.
Speaker 3 00:21:59 There, where it came from and what it feels like for you.
Speaker 2 00:22:05 I'm not, I I'd rather not go into my story. Um, just, I wasn't prepared for that. Um, but I can talk about like how it manifests. Um, that, I mean, I, I have a lot of paranoia. That's one of the big ones where I'm frequently thinking, um, like if someone doesn't email me back or doesn't text me back or like, especially people within my field of music therapy, I start telling myself, like, they know you're a bad person. Like they think you're bad. And like, I get really stuck and like really freaked out. And so I've like had trouble. Like I just tell myself a lot of stories with that. Um, it manifests with dating where I just, um, well really with, with people in general, I just don't trust anyone to tell me the truth. Um, by like, I'm constantly trying to mind read people like, and so like for instance, I work a zoom job, so I don't get to see my coworkers.
Speaker 2 00:22:59 And so like all the time, I just assume my coworkers are mad at me or something with no evidence, but like, I'd also don't have any evidence it's not true. Cause I don't get to see them, you know, and then we'll have a meeting and like, clearly they're fine. But like, I, I just, I roll into these places because I just have so many experiences of people, not being honest with me, where people I, um, where people will be like, Oh, Hey, we're firing you from this thing because of stuff you've been doing for the last year. And we've gotten a lot of complaints that we haven't talked to you about, you know? And, but we're, we're going to have you work in this other department for six months where you can ruminate about it all day, every day. Um, and you have to play it cool because we're still paying you, you know? And like, so I've just learned to really feel like I need to babysit everyone's feelings in professional spaces and dating spaces, things like that because people will turn and like, yeah, just like really, um, really do harmful shit. Um,
Speaker 0 00:23:54 Sorry, go ahead. What helps you get out of those spirals? Like how do you get out? How do you get yourself out and do you, or does it have to run? Of course. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:24:06 It depends when it's, um, I'm trying to have more healing. Oh, okay. With trauma stuff. Um, do you all know about like neuro-plasticity? Yeah. Um, so in trauma and in a lot of these things, but in trauma, we're repeating these cycles of a certain set of beliefs or a certain set of actions that make it still happen, or we avoid even going there. So we keep that same pathway, very strong, you know, that it's bad things happening, bad things happening. But then once in a while you, you have a situation where you do you're doing the work or you're, you're like thinking this is going to be okay. And you have a repetitive experience where someone is opening that with, uh, open and communicative with me where they do tell me the truth and what they're thinking and, or, you know, and, and then it just like helps, like build that other pathway just a little bit, build that pathway a little bit.
Speaker 2 00:24:55 And so I'm trying to, for instance, with the, um, I have friends where I say, can I do reality checks with you? They're like, yeah, of course. And, and so like, I can text them like, Hey, we had this interaction the other day. Like I, I have a friend where recently they had me come to a party at their house, like in their backyard and meet their friends. And I was, and it was really fun cause I was like making people laugh. And it was like my first time making people laugh and like a year and a half. And I'm like, it makes me feel really good about myself when I make people laugh. And, um, and it was just that I was meeting these people and all this stuff. And I convinced myself over the next week that like I said, wrong things, they all hated me that like, none of them want to see me again, that I really embarrassed myself.
Speaker 2 00:25:34 And even like stuff into my gender identity, like you're faking it like this isn't real, like, you know, stuff like that. And um, and then I saw that friend and I said, Hey, I just want to check with you because I'm having a lot of these paranoid thoughts. I'm not sure if they're real. And they just kind of said like, no people enjoyed hanging out with you. You didn't do anything wrong. Like I invited you to hang out again. Wouldn't have done that. You know? And so like building a safe relationship with someone where I feel comfortable in volt in that vulnerability of doing reality checks has been really helpful for me. Um, I also have a best friend who is far away. I wish, you know, it'd be nice to have someone in town like this, but like I have a best friend who's just very straight forward with me and has been very honest with me for years.
Speaker 2 00:26:12 And I trust her. Um, so basically, um, really being careful with the relationships I have, um, which of course is, makes dating harder too. But, um, but being really careful so that I know I can trust people that being said, it, it, I can have all these restorative experiences, you know, one, two, five, seven experiences and get like a little further ahead, but then have one really damaging one that puts me all the way back or puts me six steps back when I'm seven steps forward. So it's like even I, one that was kind of both like two weeks ago where someone got in touch with me, or I got in touch with a friend and basically it was a situation where she's like, Hey, I heard these bad things about you. What's your side. And, um, and part of my trauma stuff is like people spreading false things about me in ways that I had no control over and continue not to.
Speaker 2 00:27:03 And I, me just trying to get over it and, and help. And it's been just super scary and painful. And I've like, mostly what winter. Um, I I've, I've gotten away from my professional organizations and things cause it's just too triggering to be around colleagues. Um, and, um, and this person said, I'd like to hear your side. And so I went through and it was a very triggering experience to like retell all this story, but then she was like, I'm so thankful we got to talk about this. Cause I had no idea. It was, it was repairative in that. I got that, that I told my story and she believed me. And she was someone who I really cared about and didn't even know was avoiding me and like all this stuff, but because it was so triggering and because of that information, she gave me here, two weeks later, I'm still ruminating about it.
Speaker 2 00:27:48 I'm still rooming. I'm still, um, I'm still like that level one triggered where like all the time, I'm just very much more sensitive, you know? So, but in that conversation, I was like at a level eight, nine, and I was able to bring it down to that level two within an hour, which like last summer literally would have, I would have been at, I would have been heightened for at least a week or two. And I was able to calm down within an hour. So like it was prepared that I got to see myself do better, quicker than I had in a long time. That's awesome. So that's the long answer. The short answer is building restorative experiences and safe ways and a good therapist.
Speaker 3 00:28:26 Good. So, so PTSD is like, we have something traumatic happen and then you're reliving it through like a certain event or trigger.
Speaker 2 00:28:36 It can manifest in a lot of ways. Um, there are triggering things in my day, but like by and large, it's just there. Like, it doesn't have to be turned on. It's just there that I'm like, you know, there've been times where I've been scared to take a shower because not because there's anything wrong with the shower, but because that's where I ruminate every time that I get stuck in those cycles. And then like the rest of my morning is ruined. And it's like, if, if I keep myself occupied, if I keep watching YouTube people looking at Facebook or last summer just being a high all the time, that was like, the way I coped would also kept me in a bad cycle. And I wasn't, and it really helped me back.
Speaker 3 00:29:10 Yeah. I think part of my like detach avoidant detachment style is it comes, I've never been diagnosed with PTSD, but I had, uh, like a physically and emotionally abusive childhood, but most of it was physical and I have a great fear of talking to strangers and people or anyone that gets angry. Like I don't know them and they get angry, but it's not even like a mad angry. It's just like people that are saying, Oh, I don't want to talk to you today that I don't know. Or someone going, Oh, did she just cut me in line? And I get like so fearful, I just shut down and I become anxious. And with this last relationship, I mean, I had another relationship that he was physically abusive. He hit me a lot and I just took it. And I didn't know, this was over 10 years ago.
Speaker 3 00:30:05 I thought it was over this relationship. And with the sky, he was drunk all the time too. And then with this recent guy being an alcoholic, the first weekend I saw him become drunk. It just, I snapped and I found out he was cheating on me and I hit him. It was like, I went into this like, you know, fight or flight mode. And I went full on fight and it felt so guilty afterwards. But I didn't know that I still had that, you know, trauma from the past. Cause it just put me back into that, that place where I was getting hit by partners. And I just felt like I had to like hit him. Like I had to like just defend myself when he wasn't doing anything. He was just sitting there being drunk. Which is that, do you think that's like kind of describes what PTSD is?
Speaker 2 00:30:52 Well, there's clearly a trigger and then a response and it's something that you feel is unhealthy. And, and so I can't diagnose anything. Yeah. Bottom line is, it sounds like you haven't healed from those situations. Is that accurate so far?
Speaker 3 00:31:10 I don't think I have coped with the relationship that was from 10 years ago.
Speaker 2 00:31:15 Yeah. So, um, it seems like something good to address in therapy, you know? Um, because the bottom line is, if you haven't done the work to heal from something, you probably haven't healed from that something healing doesn't usually happen by accident. In my experience, there's certain things you get over over with over time, but something like that, you got to got to look at it, head on, you know, but as an avoidant person that might be tough avoid makes it really hard to address things
Speaker 3 00:31:44 I just avoid love, but I definitely don't avoid taking care of myself because I avoided people. We are selfish. We want to make, we want to work on our career being happy ourselves and no one else can make us happy. We're not going to make you happy. We want alone time.
Speaker 0 00:32:03 Do either of you do EMDR or DBT?
Speaker 2 00:32:07 Um, I've done EMDR and I've done art, which is like a cousin to EMDR. It's called the accelerated resolution therapy. It still has got the back and forth and like, but it's just a different process. And art works really well for me.
Speaker 0 00:32:21 I've heard about air TTA a little bit. I don't know a lot about it, but yeah, EMDR is awesome.
Speaker 3 00:32:29 No, I want to try a EMDR. I just I've been in cognitive based therapy for six years has been great depression, but I think I need something more to address the trauma in my life.
Speaker 2 00:32:46 There is something called TF CBT or trauma focused, cognitive behavioral therapy, um, which is more kind of in that standard traditional kind of behavioral therapy model and is what is specific for trauma. Um, and then yeah, then you got EMDR art, kind of those other things. Um, and I know I have some colleagues that think EMDR and like all that stuff, apparently the data is that like, it's all kind of, it's all kind of equally effective, but I just know for me third ball. And if you want to really go down the rabbit hole, there's a certain point with CBT that it gets kind of white supremacist. Um, yeah, because of just like the modeling of how we're supposed to be able to work through things is very much based in that like cognitive reframing. But when you get into oppression there, there isn't really, I can't constantly be re cognitively reframe my oppression, you know, and, and none of us can get it's something that's outside of our bodies. And, and there's a certain point where therapy becomes training people to just cope with oppression versus their anxiety, depression, things like that. And so there's certain things that like cognitive approach doesn't, doesn't quite make it. And especially the further you get from, you know, SIS hat, white man, middle-class yada yada able bodied all that. But that's another podcast.
Speaker 0 00:34:05 It definitely is. Um, so I had a friend, you know, ask people for questions and stuff. So I had a friend, she asked a couple of questions. Um, some of them we've already, you've already answered, but, um, I'll just ask what, um, what's the best way to be there for a partner who's dealing with mental illness. So like your partner, if you had a partner, what was the best way for them to show up, show up for you, be,
Speaker 3 00:34:39 Be patient, do research, you know? Cause like so many people don't know about bipolar besides law and order has someone asked me, so you kill people. Like, no, I don't kill people, but no, like it's, I'm medicated. I feel like don't treat me like I'm diseased. You know, I have my own personality, I have my mental illnesses, but I'm still a person that's autonomous, um, be patient be there for me. And, and do your research.
Speaker 2 00:35:21 Yeah. Someone doing their research about like the generalities of my mental health stuff is such a loving act. Um, I've had one partner who really like literally was teaching me things and you're like, Oh, did you know that this is a common thing with it? I'm like I had no idea. And that has been my life for 20 years, you know? Like, um, so that's such a loving act to learn more about what someone's dealing with without them having to teach you that being said, having open honest conversations about cause like my needs with my diagnoses are different than someone else with the same diagnoses, you know? Um, and so kind of along with what Kaleena said that like I'm an individual with these things. Don't just like lumping into some category of like, Oh, I dated someone like that once. And it's like, well, hold on, there are things here that are the same. Absolutely. But it's going to be a Venn diagram, um, that patience piece. Um, and it's really tough because I mean, I'm kind of almost at a stage in my life where I don't really fuck with people without mental health issues anymore because like, it's just, it's really hard for people to get it, um, to get that. It's just, you can't,
Speaker 0 00:36:27 You can't
Speaker 2 00:36:28 Just turn it off and it'd be super wonderful. I wish I could turn it off. Um, you know, there are certain aspects of it that like I can see, like there's like some super powers to like having some mental health issues. Like, you know, um, people with anxiety and depression tend to have much more accurate self-awareness than, um, than typical folks or people with ADHD like are able to do, you know, are able to, um, it's really clear what we love with ADHD because it's the thing we can actually go is on for extended periods of time. And, um, and there's other, you know, fun things with that. But by and large, you know, the kind of, uh, with dating it's, you know, it's about like learning, talking, being honest. Um, and, and, um,
Speaker 0 00:37:13 Yeah, I don't know,
Speaker 3 00:37:16 Accepting me for who I am. I think people need to, I mean, when you're with a partner, you're going to accept who that person is. No matter what, I mean, everyone has mental illnesses. It's just that we're diagnosed. I mean, I think I'm better off than someone who's not diagnosed and unmedicated, it doesn't go to therapy, right?
Speaker 2 00:37:35 No, there's a point there that like, um, that we know where we're working with and there's a lot of people and, and every, you know, everyone's got the things that make them tick the things that are frustrating, the things that are good, the things that are tough, yada yada, and it's just, ours are at a certain level that it's diagnosable and it's something that is causing a lot of trouble. So, you know, just like any relationship, we got to learn what our partners working with and learn to love and accept that. Um, yeah, but it's, it's complicated and just, yeah. Being honest with what we can do and being really careful with that theater complex. Cause I'm not, I don't want to be someone's project and I don't want to be dealt with, with baby gloves. I don't want people to be scared of talking to me. I can take responsibility for my feelings. I can take responsibility for what I'm working with. Um, and, but I just want us to like figure it out, you know?
Speaker 0 00:38:27 Yeah. And it's true. We all have our own shit. Um, so that kind of goes into the next, um, there's such a stigma towards mental illness. What do you think could be said to help break the stigma within the realm of dating?
Speaker 3 00:38:50 Um, I think like what Daniel said, don't compare us to someone else. You know, it was just like the guy I dated was like, I'm great with people with bipolars. Like, well, we're not all the same. It's like whoever you dated that people that you've dated with bipolar. I mean, obviously we're not together, so you couldn't handle it. Um,
Speaker 0 00:39:15 That's all,
Speaker 2 00:39:16 Yeah. With breaking stigma. Honestly, the first thing I think of is just like film and television, because so many people, that's how, that's how so many of us learn about people. We don't get to meet every day, you know? Um, and if there were just more realistic depictions of mental health and re and honestly more importantly, depictions of mental health where it's not the characters entire story, like it's not a story about a man's work, you know, working through depression and suicidality. It's like just a character on the show being like some, having an episode, you know, or like, or whatever it is. And it's just like, Oh yeah, like this person is dealing with that. And it's just like, it's not an entire arc of a character. It's just an aspect of a character who has whole other aspects of, you know, what they're doing in the story, because that's what it is. I am a person working through life in my own story and I have these challenges and it's not my entire identity. It's not what I do for a job. It's just something I'm actively dealing with every day know, which is meaningful and important. And it doesn't have to be my whole personality. You know,
Speaker 3 00:40:12 I do want to say for people that want to date me in particular, like I would tell them, know what you're getting into and know what your boundaries are. You know, if someone doesn't want to date someone with bipolar after, you know, after what they know about it, then don't, it's just like I could have easily been like, I don't want to date anyone else with alcoholism because of, so I've dated so many alcoholics, but I it's something that I'm fine with. Not everyone's the same, but I could also say, I don't want to date anyone with alcoholism. That's a boundary that I could set for myself too.
Speaker 0 00:40:53 Yeah. Um, what other questions? I'm a little spaced out today. Sorry guys. So here's a good one, I guess like can mental mental illness be of a forgivable reason for poor treatment of partners?
Speaker 2 00:41:19 That's a good question. The short answer is no. Right. But it, but it also depends because, um,
Speaker 0 00:41:33 You know,
Speaker 2 00:41:34 How do we, how do we make room for someone when they're not at their best in any relationship, you know, in any relationship? Um, there are things that we bring to the table when we're not at our best that are harmful or that aren't fun or that are unkind or anything along that spectrum. And when you have specific mental health diagnoses, those things can be more dramatic. That can be more frequent. Um, and so, and of course, every dyad, every partnership or try out, or like whatever your relationship is like is going to be different. And every time it's a new thing to navigate with new things. So, um, I don't think mental health is an excuse to be harmful to someone, but I think it is something to make room for and to, um, what's the word, just another thing to navigate because, um, like for instance, Paulina, you said like when I'm in this space, take away my phone, whatever.
Speaker 2 00:42:33 Like, I don't think a partner should take away your phone. I think you need to have a plan to, to get rid of your phone or you hand the phone to the partner saying hide this. Or like, I'd be like, you know, me and my mental health space, I need to one be the one like holding the reins to like how I'm taking responsibility for it as best as I can. Um, but yeah, but I would never say like, Oh, I have this diagnosis. So that, therefore the thing I did to you, you need to forgive that. Like, because I couldn't control myself. Like I'm not into that.
Speaker 3 00:43:04 No. Yeah. There's, I mean, I think there's a line between an abusive relationship and then, you know, how much you can take from a person's mental illness. I mean, I think there's a, there's a difference. It's like all about your own boundaries. Um, you know, if you have someone like me, like I hit someone like my own boundaries is going to be, if someone hits me, whether they have alcoholism, bipolar, PTSD, whatever, that's my boundary, because I'm going to fight back. It's going to be an abusive relationship from both ends. We're just going to be both like abusing each other. And then there's also just, I mean, being, having a mental illness doesn't mean you're a shitty person. People are just shitty and that's not an excuse.
Speaker 2 00:43:56 And the other thing that I try and do is not see things as binaries, you know, it's not abusive or not. It's all a spectrum, you know, it's not healthy relationship or not. It's a spectrum. And like, and even with the way, so it's like, do I, so even going back to the original question, like is mental health challenges and excuse for being harmful and relationship? No, it isn't. Um, and on that spectrum of like harmful acts in a relationship, anything from like, Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot about this important thing, which is something that is really common, you know, in a lot of these diagnoses, there is issues with memory and paying attention and things like that. So I do think there needs to be room for things like that. Um, so, so it depends on what the harmful thing is when it's things that are like active, like cleaning, you said like, um, punching like physical violence like that, that's definitely a boundary that can't be crossed. And also, um, there's also the question of what are my boundaries for myself, let alone, what are my boundaries with my partner? You know, and what do I do when I cross my own boundaries? How do I handle that without spiraling? You know,
Speaker 3 00:45:00 That's a good one. That's a really good one. Yeah. I mean, I guess if you're a sociopath, is that, is that a mental illness? Narcissism? Is that a mental illness? Those are just shitty people. I mean, I don't think there's any excuse to act that way.
Speaker 2 00:45:16 Well, they, their personality disorders, you know, um, and, and even narcissism is a scale. There is a narcissistic scale, you know? And so there are, but, you know, yeah. When you get into psychopathy and like narcissism and things like very, like being a psychopath and like narcissism and stuff like that gets into that. Like if someone's not having empathy for another person, how do we deal with that? You know, especially in a capitalist society where those skills or those personality traits make it easier to be successful, make it easier to make money and things like that. So they're rewarded frequently for those on a capitalistic way. Even if like in relationship with becomes really harmful. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:45:57 Me personally, I couldn't be with someone that has borderline antisocial, like all the personality disorders pretty much because you can get better, but it's always gonna be there and it's, you can't really medicate it really. I mean, sometimes like you said, it's like a spectrum, but those are no. Hey, I know I can't handle that.
Speaker 2 00:46:18 Yeah. I'm, I'm uncomfortable saying like carton cart launch that like there are diagnoses that I would never be interested in, in dating. It really comes down to what people are putting into it. And there are people I know people with borderline personality disorder who like are putting in work or doing their best and like are really trying to do better, you know? And, um, and so, um, like we need to, I think if I want people to have space for me and my mental health stuff, I want to be able to make space for everyone else's as well. But it just comes down to taking responsibility because I'm not interested in dating someone with it doesn't matter what their diagnosis is. If they don't take responsibility for what they can, you know,
Speaker 3 00:46:55 You're much more open than I am. I love it. Yeah. But I did date a sociopath. That was my first boyfriend. So that ruined my life up until to the, to this day. He has still ruined my life. Yeah. That stuff it's hard to heal from. It fucks with your head. Yeah. But it's also hard to like, you can't really tell really, it's hard to tell when someone's a sociopath. So I probably did it more than one, but if I knew that he was diagnosed with it, I probably, I dunno.
Speaker 2 00:47:30 Would you, would you have gotten out like, cause that's the other thing is like, so often in relationships we bond, we connect and then you find out that stuff and you're like, that's fine. You know,
Speaker 3 00:47:41 I don't know if I knew like beforehand. No, but like if they were diagnosed with it and they're working towards it, it depends like this there's a scale. There's like, you know, really bad ones. And there's the ones that are like lawyers and doctors and maybe, I don't know,
Speaker 0 00:48:00 I did one and he told me like, well, they were dating and I still, I still stayed for a little bit longer, but it was a mind fuck.
Speaker 3 00:48:12 Oh no, this one was one that was his like, so as you pass or like Dexter, they kill people. He was just like refusing it. He hates therapy. Oh yeah, no, I need, um, affection. I need love and caring. And that was not him at all.
Speaker 0 00:48:35 Empathy.
Speaker 2 00:48:37 I also wonder how gender plays in, um, you know, um, you know, men fresh out the gate, like engaging with therapy, engaging with self-awareness engaging with things like that is such for some reason, such a, such a high bar to cross. And I know for me, like on my journey, like, um, I it's, it's always been very confusing for me engaging with men and I don't date men. So, so I, so with both of your stories, like it's just going to be a different game than what I've had, what I've played, you know? And so when it comes to socio ups, sociopathic behavior, narcissism, et cetera, I know that the person I dated who lied about everything, looking back, I don't know what I would diagnose her with, but like she clearly didn't see any harm and all the harm she was causing or she didn't care.
Speaker 2 00:49:23 And, and she's been very successful. Like, you know, just what I've seen. She, she got in touch with me like a year ago and was like, Hey, I saw an old email from you. And like sent me like three messages on like one on Facebook, on email. Like just came out of nowhere after I hadn't talked to her in years, like seven, eight, nine years. And I had no idea how to respond. And finally, I just said, Hey, I consider you an abusive partner. I've had to do a lot of work and I'm still not healed from that relationship. And like, and, um, I'm not proud of things that I brought to that relationship either, but like, please don't contact me, you know? And, um, and the thing is I was prepared for her to be super defensive. I was prepared for her to maybe like, apologize.
Speaker 2 00:50:03 I was prepared for like those kinds of things. But what I got was within a minute, she responded, um, I know it can be hard to express yourself or like something like that. And that was it. Which first off, not true. I don't know if you've heard of me in this entire hour. I'm very, I'm pretty competent at expressing myself. Yeah. I was just, so it was even more confusing. I'm like, how did you find the perfect response? And it turns out that is an abuse tactic. The non-response, you know, when you say something big and intense and it's like, okay,
Speaker 0 00:50:35 It sounds manipulative to me
Speaker 2 00:50:37 Deeply. So I got that language. I was like, okay. So she hasn't changed because that was also this hope that she would say, wow, yeah, I lied so much that I've done. I'm the way better now. No, she's just like, now she, what is she doing? She's a, um, like a divinity leader on a college campus. Like she's like leading young people in like a religious space and I'm like, Ugh,
Speaker 0 00:50:58 God. Yup. They're out there. So yeah. So it's
Speaker 3 00:51:05 No, I would not date a sociopath again because when I did it, that sociopath, I was 18 super, super, super, super detached. You never knew anything personal about me. And that's why we were together for three years. Cause he didn't care. He didn't want to get to know me and I didn't want anyone to get to know me
Speaker 0 00:51:21 And I've changed. Perfect. Wow. Yeah. I mean, it's up to us, you know, to take care of ourselves and to make sure that we're opening up to the people that actually care about, you know, us opening up and sharing acting. So yeah.
Speaker 3 00:51:48 I mean, not to say that like sociopath can't find love. I mean, there's probably sociopath's listening to this right now. He's married now. He's he has a wife. Like it works for them. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:52:00 Yeah. Not for me. They definitely can obviously have, you know, normal lives or whatever. But yeah, I think especially if you're an empath, which I think you all probably are, um, being with a sociopath is very fucking challenging.
Speaker 2 00:52:24 Well, even the term impact makes me bristle a little bit because I've known narcissistic people who call themselves an empath and, and it can be an ad it's, you know, if someone isn't self-aware but believes they're an empath, really, they're saying I'm deciding how you feel and agreeing with myself, you know? And so like, I, I do believe that I am empathic. I do think, I feel a lot of things with people and I I'm really careful not to assume that I'm right. You know? Um, because, but again, like I mentioned before, I'm constantly trying to mind read people because I'm so scared that people are lying to me. So like there's a whole circle there of like me not, not achieving my highest functioning self, but, um, but yeah, like even, even there's a lot of this terminology that can become problematic when put into it. Like I said, everything's a spectrum, you know, is it beautiful?
Speaker 3 00:53:12 I agree with you Daniel so much. Like I don't call them. I don't call myself an empath, but I'm very empathetic and compassionate, but I don't know what other people are feeling.
Speaker 0 00:53:23 Yeah. It's nobody does. I mean really, but just like, you know, it seems like we're all sort of people that care about what's going on and wanna, you know, hear and listen. And that's what, yeah. That's what I mean by that. Like, I'm definitely a highly sensitive person. I know that for sure.
Speaker 3 00:53:44 Yeah. Sensitive.
Speaker 0 00:53:47 Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:53:49 That's what my last ex calls himself is. Impathics but no, he watched my moods. He watched me, he watched my, like, he observed me as a person he's observant, but I wouldn't say you sent path.
Speaker 0 00:54:05 He gave him the information, like how to, you know, work with you. I'm sure. You know, much people to whatever, you know, we all watch people, but anyways, um, yeah. Yeah. Um, so where are you at right now? Kaleena was like the breakup and everything.
Speaker 3 00:54:34 I'm so exhausted. I'm like, I'm at the, I'm still bargaining. I'm still thinking like it's so fucking weird. I'm going to sound even more like mentally ill, I guess in quotes. Like it's just like, I felt like there was this psychic bond be with us, but I don't know if, because he was lying about it. Cause I would say things like when we first met, I would be like, did you tell me you're at the river with your dad? You know? And I, you know, he was like, no, I was like two days ago, but in tell you, so I was thinking like, Oh, we are psychic. And then when I was blocking his number, he texted me. I don't feel your presence anymore. Like, I don't feel you anymore. I'm like, Oh, there's that psychic connection again? Or there's times where I've woken up with panic attacks or anxiety going Corey, Corey, like just like thinking like I I'm so scared because this is how he lives. Most of the time is being fearful, but it's probably just me already knowing that he lives, you know, fearfully that he's always like in fear.
Speaker 3 00:55:43 And that's part of me that like makes me feel attached to him. But I'm also like during this conversation thinking like we both made mistakes, you know, we're just not meant to be together. There's someone else. We have this great bond. Um, we have a lot of things in common. He's hilarious. He's funny. He's so attractive. He's pansexual. I love pansexual men because they're so open. He's so open. But he was like, everything I wanted except he doesn't tell the truth and that's like, I can't, I don't trust him. So I think like the next person, I will find like all those same qualities that I've been wanting, but someone who's honest and just tells me the truth. That's all I want. It was his time and honesty. So I'm moving on from it. Hopefully I'm, I'm just tired right now. I just I'm my bipolar, my, uh, my moods have been so fucking bad during this pandemic. And everyone that I've spoken to that has bipolar have been cycling like crazy. Like most of the time I I've gone maybe three years old thought having an episode. And during the pandemic, it's every, every two months it's going from mania to depression to, Hey, I'm okay. But most of it is being manic. I probably cycled like six times already in the past year and this year, I think we're only in may. I think I've cycled like three times.
Speaker 3 00:57:19 So I'm just harder to, I think, um, I'm ready for post Postum pandemic. I think that after the pandemic, people are going to go crazy and like date, a lot of people. And then there's people that have realized that we do want just one partner like me. Like I'm like really like separating from being, you're having the attach, like avoidance attachment. I'm like, I want a life partner. I want that one person I can count on and I'm ready to like open up and spill my heart and just be like, come into my wife. I don't want to be scared anymore. Like I love you. You love me, God. Isn't that so fucking scary. I'm ready for it. I have a few months. Not right now, but I'm ready to love again. Not right now because I'm still in love with the last person and that's not fair. I don't do rebounds. Yeah. That's okay.
Speaker 2 00:58:19 So can I ask you a question Polina about your current situation? Um, you mentioned you're still talking every day. So how can you do the healing you need to do when almost nothing has changed besides? Yeah,
Speaker 3 00:58:35 It's been, it's been two days now since we haven't spoken, but ever since we started talking online, we've spoken every day in like multiple times a day when he was in treatment for two months, we would talk like five times a day. So it has trickled down. So it's been two days so far, but I'm hoping for like to go a week and then yeah.
Speaker 2 00:59:00 Cause like you set a boundary with him. Have you set a boundary with yourself about like how to move forward or you just kind of like playing it by ear?
Speaker 3 00:59:08 I've tried to, I mean, I had a friend take my phone and I was like, okay, I want you to like block his number and make sure his number is not anywhere in my called lists, miss called list and block his mom's number. But I still get text messages from him and I knew I couldn't trust him. I was like, block. I can't do it. I can't cut myself off from him. And it's not him. That's contacted me. It's just both of us. I mean, my therapist asked me today. He was like, so do you think it's healthy to talk every day? I was like, I think, no, I think, but for now, I mean, like I said, he's like the only person that is showing me love my parents. My dad's dead. My mom's a narcissist. She's cold. I don't have family. I haven't seen my friends in person for ages, but it's different, you know, having a friendship kind of love. And then someone who's like, I love you. I support you. Like he's the only person right now that still cares about me. That I feel like that's still talking to me.
Speaker 2 01:00:12 Would you say that it's an acceptable level of pain for the very minimal level of love you're getting,
Speaker 3 01:00:20 I think for now. Yeah. It's I know it's not healthy right now, but like we haven't spoken for two days and like, to some people that's like nothing, but for, for us it's a long time. And so like small baby steps, make it three days and then make it four days. And then eventually like five days, I'm sure like every now and then like every two weeks he'll like pop on and just be like, hi, you know, or we still follow each other on, on Instagram. You know, I look at it as art, I think slowly it will trickle down to like every two months and then we won't be talking at all. Yeah. I need to cut it off. I really do need to cut it off. Cause I still have like this thought in my head where we're supposed to be together. He's my soulmate thing though. Like you're saying it might be a gradual thing we have gradually come back because you know
Speaker 2 01:01:21 Yeah. When relationships have that much similarity to substance use where it becomes addictive, whereas this like chemical thing, I feel like I can't get anywhere else. And it turns me into someone that I don't recognize. I trickling down. Isn't usually an option in my experience and I honor and respect whatever process you use. But, um, but yeah, I, that sounds like a lot of pieces of something that are, that can be pretty dangerous to my mental health. Um, and my ability to just like function in a way that I can stand by and be proud of.
Speaker 3 01:01:56 I've never had any troubles in the past, just like cold Turkey cutoff people. Like, I don't know if you follow NBTI or like socioeconomics. I mean, I enough J we do the <inaudible> door slam. We just, people off that's me for him. For some reason I have not been able to cut him off. I bet you will. I bet you will. At some point, just be like, I'm fucking done.
Speaker 0 01:02:21 You just, don't not there yet. Yeah. It's only been two weeks.
Speaker 2 01:02:26 Um, I guess for me, it's, I it's in relationships sometimes the language turns into like, well, you know, okay, sorry, I'm thinking about it now. It can be kind of that like do whatever you need to do. Fuck the other person's feelings. Like do whatever you need to do. And I try really hard to do something in as communicative as a way as possible. You know, I don't believe in ghosting for instance. Like I, um, it's really difficult for me to do the like, like I I'm someone who says like, Hey, I really enjoyed meeting you, but, um, I didn't feel any romantic attraction in this, in our date. So like, I, I really hope to wish you the best in your dating journey, but, um, and, and I'm happy to be friends or like whatever I'm feeling, you know, because, um, how do we find a way to respectfully honor where someone is at, um, instead of kind of waiting til I have the strength to cut things off cold Turkey, because that also doesn't sound,
Speaker 3 01:03:27 I've written so many, like goodbye texts to him. So many goodbyes and stuff. I just already just sent him another goodbye from like two days ago. I'm like, I love you. And I appreciate that, blah, blah, blah. But then it's like, I think part of it, why it's so hard to say goodbye to him is because we never broke up. Like he never broke up with me completely. And he's still telling me that he's in love with me and that he loves me more than this other person. So it's like
Speaker 2 01:03:55 Grains to the entire relationship. Like why is it based on what he decided? Why is it based on what he told you? What about what you like name your needs and your boundaries directly? Yeah,
Speaker 3 01:04:08 I thought of that too, but it's still like, I feel the same. I feel like I would be fine with him being with someone else. Like he has been fine with me, like saying you can be with other guys and I'm like, I'm fine with him being with this other woman. But he hasn't told her probably kept probably because she wouldn't be okay with it. So I'm like, I'm taking myself out of it. Like, I don't think she's going to be okay with you dating both of us, even though I would be okay, but I need to like move on because I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to be the other woman.
Speaker 0 01:04:44 It's not good for your mental health. I mean, okay.
Speaker 3 01:04:47 No, it's just a shitty thing to do. Like people have told me, like, they're like, you should warn her. You should tell her about it. I'm like, it's not my business. It's not my place. That's his, he needs to tell her I'm not going to be the bearer of that news
Speaker 0 01:05:01 Too much. Unnecessary drama too. I mean like,
Speaker 3 01:05:04 Yeah, like who knows, like maybe they're supposed to like be together. Like maybe they will they'll work out for years on end. You know, he doesn't want to be with me. So that's, that's it like, but I do want to just like stay friends. There's also that connection too. Part of it. It's just like, I've never had such a strong connection with this person. He knows everything about me. He knows I'm, I'm the pretty neurotic person besides, you know, just the mental illnesses. My personality is just crazy and his is too. I think that's part of it too. Is that like, no one knows me. Like I, as well as he does and I don't feel comfortable showing my full self to other people,
Speaker 2 01:05:46 You know, this makes me think of something. One of my favorite. So in polyamory, there's a ton of fun terms, like just a ton of fun language. And one of my favorite ones is called the game-changer relationship. And it's not just calling me. This can be a monogamy as well, but basically it's when you date someone who treats you in a certain way or sees you in a certain way, or it just, they bring something new to the table. That is so great. And you've never experienced it before. And after that relationship, you're never going back after, you know, someone who like actually honors your mental health is someone who actually like asks before doing a thing, like someone who treats you in a way you've never been treated, but you've begged for in past relationships or if you've asked for, and, and you never go back because you're like, Oh, this is achievable and can be effortless.
Speaker 2 01:06:31 And so I'm wondering in your relationship that you're having and you're figuring out right now, what are the pieces that you can say I was treated in this way? I felt loved in this way. And I don't. And I can, I can take those as things that are doable, meaningful, exciting. And I can find again versus saying, I'm never going to find that again. It was just him. He's the only one. Cause I'll tell you, like, he's not like so many people on this planet. And like I've had that so many times where I'm like, wow, this was so amazing. I'll never, and I'm usually the breakup earth in relationships. I tend to like cut things off. Um, and I've, and even something I told myself at the beginning of the pandemic when I was feeling really lonely, um, and getting kind of sad about, um, getting very sad about not dating and not feeling connected. Um, I literally made it my phone background where it said like I have loved and been loved fiercely and beautifully. And even if I never date again, the rest of my life, like I've experienced these feelings that some people get to experience. I want to you guys, I want to, and
Speaker 3 01:07:32 This video, but keep talking after.
Speaker 2 01:07:34 Yeah, sure. Some stuff. All right. Well, we're going to say goodbye.
Speaker 3 01:07:40 Okay. Um,
Speaker 2 01:07:42 Bye. Thanks for having us. Thanks
Speaker 3 01:07:44 For, thanks for talking about being normal.
