Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:21 But rebel.
Speaker 1 00:00:22 I hope that I ex have success. Um, gotten the link to this recording for everybody. Oh, anyways. Um, today I'm super excited about the episode that we are doing. It's um, the first of a series on polyamory, polyamory and ethical non-monogamy. Um, the reason I started doing a podcast is because I am fascinated in, um, the psychology of relationships and how people relate to each other. I mean, life is relating. We all relate with everything. And so, um, the way that we've been doing relationships is really morphing into something different. It's not working for most people. Um, I think it's really fascinating when it does work for people. Uh, I don't, I don't know a lot of people that actually works for in the long run, but I think it's beautiful relationships help us grow and see our inner most dark spaces. So we can do the work that we need to do for ourselves and for the world.
Speaker 1 00:01:47 So with that, I think that's beautiful and amazing. It's fucking hard work to do we know this. Um, but, uh, I'm really excited about this, this show, this episode, because there will be three people, uh, three amazing people who have been on this journey for a while and, um, and they will give you all and me a lot of information that I probably didn't even think about before. So please join me on this journey. And after you're having a wonderful day or night, wherever you are right now, it's snowing and it's like a snow globe let's October 20th. Yay. Um, yeah. So enjoy the show.
Speaker 0 00:02:41 <inaudible>
Speaker 1 00:03:02 So I'm going to start out with a lot of lists right now who we see a lot of bliss has been exploring solutions to eat ecology, social changes, holistic wellness, mutually supportive relationships and conscious birth over the 10, 10 years. A lot of hat is a permaculture culturalist home birth doula speaker, and co-founder of both the fruition center for holistic ecology and Costa Rica and green guilds ecological design in Minnesota. She incorporates holistic wellness and permaculture to just to design supportive relationships between humans and nature, Allana and her children and her partner moved to Minnesota in 2014. So their children could get a good education. She has identified with polyamorous for seven years and has had multiple kinds of non traditional partnerships. So in Matthews lives in Minnesota, Minneapolis, and was a serial monogamous before driving into diving into the world of non monogamy. Two years ago, she is a mental health therapist who specializes in high sensitivity in relationships and is endlessly fascinated by relationships, intimacy and connection.
Speaker 1 00:04:26 We're not swirling in the world of relating. You might find her having long conversations with her. Two cats hanging upside down from an aerial silk or emoji text bombing, a friend, or spending too long, too long, um, editing photos that she just took. Sarah Matthews. That's it. Hello? Imaan Imaan don't kill me if I say your, your butcher, your last name. I hope I don't <inaudible> my last thing is my last name shit. Yeah. Yeah, but I go by email. Okay. Hi, <inaudible> here is from Bangladesh has been in the U S for more than 20 years. He works as a software engineer and has been exploring the world of ethical non-monogamy for three years. <inaudible> Oh my God. I hate doing intros. I'm like, God, my intro is, um, I don't even know. Yeah. I mean, hanging out with my cats a lot. I'm really interested in relationships and you know, the psychology of relationships and that's why I'm doing this. And yeah. Um, so I put a couple of posts up on the web on Facebook and asked people to ask questions and I have some questions for you all. Are you ready? Okay. So the first question, um, is what are the different styles of polyamory? This is a big question, huh? Well, yeah. That's why,
Speaker 2 00:06:53 Well, there is a unique as the people that are engaged in them. Um, yeah. I mean, I have a whole definitions list that we can run through, but, uh, yeah, anybody else,
Speaker 3 00:07:09 The first of all is, uh, it's uh, what we, the acronym we were using ENM, right. Ethical non-monogamy. So that's kind of the umbrella term. And under, underneath that, one of, one of the stylists, uh, uh, polyamory, and, and if you ask then that types of polymer polyamory, so there could be like, let's say you have multiple partners and your partners can have multiple partners. That's like, most of the time people think that the way it works, but there are people out there who are one person as poly amorous, but then their partner is one of them, us. So even that kind of format is out there too. So yeah, as Sarah was saying, like it just really up to the individuals and, and individual, uh, relationship.
Speaker 2 00:08:07 Yeah. Yeah. It's basically, um, can you guys hear me? Yeah. Okay. Uh, so yeah, there's different types of polyamory in that there is, it's all dependent on what a person wants, right? So like for example, there's solo polyamorous, people who are, you know, they don't want to partner up, they just want to be able to have multiple partners that don't live with them necessarily, or aren't on the escalator of, uh, you know, parent partnership, um, and relationship. Yep. And so, uh, then there's also people who, um, who are asexual, who are polyamorous, who don't actually want sexual relationships, but they want the intimacy that is brought by polyamorous people. So they could be, you know, either polyamorous themselves, or they could be in a partnership with someone who is polyamorous, who does want sexuality, but loves this person. So, you know, it's, or you could have someone, you know, like, um, what your mom was saying where you have both partners that are polyamorous or just one partner and it kind of, yeah, there's a serious spectrum.
Speaker 2 00:09:05 Yeah. I just, I, I, cause we were, we are, before we talked, we started having, you know, just like a little text feed about, Oh man, all the terms we just even started there. So I actually pulled up, um, a book, um, just, it's a really, it's a really great buckets. Um, uh, which one is this fun? More than two. And I pulled up the glossary from it and it has like hundreds of terms that, and I was like, just so that if we want, really want to, you know, get specific, but, um, literally poly means, um, uh, more than like multiple loves. So it's like when, you know, I think that's where it's like, when you think of non-monogamy just means, well, there's just, you're in more than one relationship. And then polyamory, if you think about it as typically, you love more than one person you're engaged in like a committed or some level of a fright, um, romantic and perhaps sexual or just relationship type of thing.
Speaker 2 00:09:58 But then there's solo polyamory. There's a, multi-asset Murray, there's pods there. Um, you know, you have a pot and then you have, somebody might have a relationship outside of that. You have, um, you might go through phases of right, like where you edit it, it goes on and on and on and on. Um, so I think it just depends on yeah, like they were saying, like determining what it is that feels right for you. And then the ethical part of it is really communicating to your partner or partners about what that looks like, what everybody's comfortable with, what expectations are, what, you know? Um, yeah. Yeah. Some people, uh, you know, are okay with, um, it getting to a certain point, like there's sensuality where some people, some people are like Polly to align, you know, everyone has their degree of what they're comfortable with within different partnerships. Um, you know, like full, open polyamory where everyone's able to get like intimate, sexually is one level, but then there's, I've met people who were polysexual and, you know, they could get, they could cuddle and they could have like intimacy in that way. Um, but then there was that line to like, let, it also depends on the person, but these, this couple was Pauline at like probably central to, you know, know like saliva exchange or bodily fluid exchange fluid, it fluid bonding. Yeah. Thank you.
Speaker 3 00:11:23 Yeah. And the idea is isn't really the open relationship dynamic. Isn't really new. It's been, it's been there as long as humans are around. Right. It's just that now the information flows very easily and we are, uh, sharing ideas and some people are like, Oh, I guess that's what I'm doing. You know? And so then people are taking on these, uh, terms and then, then they're changing them right. Based on their, so it's just like now because of the information, so people are finding out stuff, but I feel like even without label, people have been doing things, living their life. So it's just a way of being human.
Speaker 2 00:12:10 Yeah. And some people think that are kind of, um, you know, feel that poly being polyamorous is more of like a sexual identity or a sexual orientation almost where I am like saying like, I am monogamous, you know, therefore, like I die just, I'm attracted to whatever, attracted to one person I'm, you know, oriented towards just being with one person committing to one person. I am a monogamous person. Right. And so some people say, well, I'm a non-monogamous person or polyamorous than that. I am naturally, I tend towards like falling in love or having sexual relationships or whatever, with more than one person. And that's not going to stop if I even just meet one person that I'm madly in love with. And I,
Speaker 3 00:12:51 Yeah, that, that will go into like some kind of a highly philosophy discussion because you asked me, how do you,
Speaker 3 00:13:03 If you asked me we are all built, uh, polyamorous. Yeah. That's what I believe. I believe that's socially like the idea, the issue that we have is our insecurities, our vulnerabilities. And I feel like, you know, basically some guy with some dudes with beer and way back decided that, all right, we're vulnerable, we're insecure. We're going to control women. How can we do this? All right. We're going to come up with monogamy. We're going to control them. We're going to implement this idea, spread this idea and to people and we will get to do it. Right. Like my, my religion, the code where it came from, I don't really practice. We can legally marry. We can legally have four plus wives, but we don't let women. Right. But it's all, I feel like it's this idea that men just came up with and it's like, like we are all humans. We, the need is the same. It's it's individually. You're going to be like, all right. I don't really want to do it right now. I mean, it's ebbs and flows and changes, but I feel like kind of the baseline, we're kind of like, we're not like penguins like made for life kind of way. Right. So, so you know, it just that to deal with these, the vulnerabilities and insecurities, we implemented this solution and, you know, it's kind of a universal solution.
Speaker 2 00:14:36 Yeah. I feel like, um, I always think about it as like on a, I don't know if a spectrum is a good, right. Like it's like we think the, the normal standard, or what society has said is that you're either like a monogamous, like the bell curve is like, monogamy is in the middle. Most people are monogamous. And then you have these outliers that are non-monogamous and these outliers that are right. Like what I don't know. And I think of it more as like, eh, you know, I think it's, you know, probably non-monogamy or just general interest in more than one person or attractiveness, or, I mean, even if you think of friends, we can have really intimate friendships with people, but it's not non-monogamy right. But it's like that wire for some kind of connection, whether it's sexual or intimate or friend, or we're wired a lot of us, not everybody, but are wired for some level of connection.
Speaker 2 00:15:26 So it's just kind of how, how we decide to do that or what our society says okay. With that, or what we feel comfortable with or, you know, and so I think it's more like bell curve as there's people that are very specifically non monogamous that are just like fall in love with somebody else and nobody else exists. I think that's probably on one spectrum, like some level of a non-monogamy kind of right. Something, whatever that looks like one partner, but multiple intimate friendships. Why is that? Not, you know, whatever, somewhere in the middle. Um, and then maybe not interested in anybody or not wanting any kind of connection, any kind of sexuality, you know, anything is probably on one other extreme. I would, that's kind of how it think
Speaker 3 00:16:05 It's like in, in, in any type of relationship, it could be friends, it could be family members, uh, you know, it could be your, your kids, you know, we are totally cool with having multiple relationship, but right. When it comes to romantic relationship, it has to be expensive. It just doesn't make sense. Sorry to interrupt. How did you all find that you are
Speaker 2 00:16:38 Probably was that you wanted to explore having relationships with other people and not being monogamous? Figure that out before, before I answered, I just put one into, add a little bit of something to the last thing that we were talking about. I think also it changes in our relationship and this is really, um, for me, I came across this, uh, where it shifts a lot when I got pregnant, because when I got pregnant, I did not want a polyamorous relationship with my person. And I was having a baby with, because I was feeling like one, I was going to be really emotional and I wanted that sense of security, um, in that moment. And so we got monogamous and we agreed, you know, we talked about it. It wasn't, like I said, you better do this. I was like, Hey, I'm really feeling like right now, I need to be monogamous because I want that support and that love and connection.
Speaker 2 00:17:27 And, um, and so then it's like, until I'm feeling like this intimate, see that we're kind of creating together in the form of a baby and family when it's like a little bit mature, more mature than, you know, we're opening it up again. And as I say, everyone does that, but that's for me, what I needed, um, in order to feel really safe. Yeah, totally. That makes sense. Yeah. And same, right? Like it's, we're not, I think that's the thing too. It's like, you're either born this or you're born that, or you're oriented this way. And it's like, I think humans are a lot more like growth mindset, change mindset. We were not the same person. I'm not the same person I was when I was 20, you know, or even five years ago, you know, it's like you evolve and change. And so right.
Speaker 2 00:18:11 Life circumstances change. And so for me, when I encountered a non-monogamy first, it was in the form of polygamy and I was in a relationship with a Muslim man who was polygamous and he wanted to, he wanted that to be a part of our relationship. And, uh, and I, you know, at first I was hesitant, but then I agreed. And so, you know, in a form of like sister wives and you know, where we were all connected. And, um, I saw as a mother, I saw the benefit of like having a community of other women that were, you know, collaboratively raising the family. Unfortunately, he, I think he was intimidated by actually having multiple women in his life that were together. And so he just cheated on me, but that was my first experience. It wasn't bad. It was just different. And that's why like polyamory it's because it allows for the women to also be involved in that.
Speaker 2 00:19:06 All right. I think I, for me, I think it's something I've kind of always been naturally oriented to. Like, it always made sense to me. Like I always had lots of attraction to various people. Right. It's just, it was the, for me, I'm, I'd say I'm really like sticking to my commitments and like being clear in communication and being respectful of my relationships are really, really important. And so, you know, it's like if I was in a relationship, then I would still have attraction to other people, but I just, right. I just know dealt with it or it was, you know, it's like my primary thing was being, you know, respectful of the relationship I was in. And I think, um, I think just, you know, maybe my age I was introduced into non-monogamy, I started getting resources for the books and, you know, starting reading about this stuff.
Speaker 2 00:20:01 And I'm like, Oh, I'm reading about what already makes sense to me. You know, it's just, now I'm just needing people that are also speaking the same language and are being as ethical or as respectful as I would want to be in being able to do this. Cause I think my perception before is like, yeah, so everybody's just going to cheat on everybody and that, and I'm like, that's not for me. Right. Um, but I've found some of the most respectful and communicative and growth oriented and relationship or person focused people, um, doing this. And so actually it's been really eyeopening in a really beautiful fit for me and something that feels freeing and natural and open. And, um, I think it depends on the partners that you have to, I would to say, but yeah, but that's like anything. Right. And that's like any relationship, it can change your thoughts and your opinions and your feelings about it, depending on who you're with. So yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:21:00 Uh, for me, um, it was like five, six years ago. Like I was, uh, uh, started making new friends here in Boston and a bunch of my friends were openly poly. They were like talking about it, like almost like evangelists kind of way, which is kind of, you know, not my thing, you know, I'm like, Hey, this is just not my primary thing. But for those guys, they were just like every other word they're like, Oh, I'm Paulie, I'm Pauline. I'm like, but anyway, you know where that helps me like, Oh, so there's something I guess people do. So just got curious. Uh, and then, uh, when I was, uh, out in a dating app, kind of seen my pro card and partner. Right. Like now she, you know, uh, uh, uh, hit me up and then we were started chatting and she's like, yeah, like if you are interested, you know, think about it. Um, cause she's like, I, uh, I do say like in, in, in my police circle we say that, uh, uh, de deal on species. Right. Cause like you might not be poly person, but I want to try it out. If you are interested, I'm like, all right, let's, let's see where it goes. And it's three years in.
Speaker 2 00:22:20 Wow. That's when I met you. Right.
Speaker 3 00:22:24 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, uh, I, I used to go back and forth in Minnesota because of my job. And we met at that time. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:22:33 Uh, I think for me, I was after the first relationship, I was kind of like, I had a little bit of a bitter taste in my mouth around the non ethical elements of it. And so I was hesitant, but, um, my husband, my ex-husband was really into like being open. And so like, even in our vowels, we didn't say like cell death or anything, we just kind of held the space in case we wanted it. And then at some point we have a farm in Costa Rica and someone came there and he, and I kind of fell in love. And before we did anything, we ask permission from my husband at the time, like say, Hey, okay, this is something that I'm, you know, are you open to me, like opening up our relationship and becoming poly. And he was, he was open to it. And so we, and we were all living together like right away because it was a farm with volunteers.
Speaker 2 00:23:20 And we had kids, I have two children from the, from the Muslim man that he passed. Um, he died in 2007. And so, you know, I had those two children then I have, um, I have four altogether. And so when I ended up being with, um, with Joseph, my current partner, uh, the part that the, because we all lived together and we cultivated a really powerful relationship and the two of them, my Jason and Joseph are totally best friends and still to this day are very, very close. The transition with the kids was awesome. Like they never felt their father. Like they just, um, they just felt like the family expands. And so as it transitioned into different forms, um, and they just felt like it was bigger. And I just kept telling them, you remember, when your brother was born and how I didn't love you any less.
Speaker 2 00:24:16 I just loved him more. They were like, yeah, well, that's, what's going on here is that you don't Joseph's here. And we just love him just loving more. And, um, and you know, over time now it's kind of transitioned where Joseph is more their father regularly, you know, Jason has two buddies and still in Costa Rica. So it's, uh, but it was really amazing to see with children how this like tribal relationship can this be so nourishing and give them so many more support systems than they have with just a traditional, like two parent partnership. Um, so I'm just amazed by it. Um, Oh no. I just think that it's a really, um, like we're tribal beings, humans, and we've always existed in these like partnerships that were more than just two people. I mean, we've evolved and survived over a years with tribes and, you know, communities. And so it's, I think more in our nature. Trina, are you guys still there? Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:25:27 Yeah. I mean, it is, it might, you know, like all the stories you're hearing and I'm not gonna speak for you two guys, but, uh, even my story might sound like, Oh, okay, everything is hunky Dory, but it's a lot of hard work it's it's
Speaker 2 00:25:41 Relationships.
Speaker 3 00:25:44 And, uh, but then I still, uh, you know, like I keep on saying that I'm experimenting. So at some point I might decide not to do, we were just talking about like people change and they, they, um, uh, change their, uh, dynamic of relationship dynamic. So even if I change, I still would like, if some new person says that, what is this thing I would like, absolutely go for it, try it out. You're going to learn so much and you will come out of it as a really, really
Speaker 2 00:26:16 Better word.
Speaker 3 00:26:19 So I that's what I said.
Speaker 2 00:26:22 I, yeah, I remember it was either reading a book or a podcast when I was trying to understand. Cause I think I took, once I was introduced to me, I took like six months or five or six months and just read about it and ask questions and talk, you know, just to kind of wrap my brain around it and you know, one of the podcasts or books or something that said, don't think, um, for a relationships in general, but non-monogamy all about this happy bliss, sexual thing, you know, it's it, you know, go into it, thinking with the intention of self-growth, you know, um, and a lot of work. Yeah. You know, I think it depends on the partners again, right? Like it's, again, it's like some partners, like you trigger each other in certain ways or come with certain tasks or relationships or have metamor don't know what Metamora is.
Speaker 2 00:27:09 It's like your partners, partner or partners, partners metamor um, you know, and there might be some conflict there or, you know, um, or part, you know, there might be scheduling challenges or there might be a jealousy that comes up or there might be, I mean, there's all of these things that come up in monogamous relationships too. Um, but it's just, you're, you're dealing with it more acutely often. It's in your face a little bit more when you're actually a little bit more non-secure because you don't right. You're doing agreements and all these things as they come or as you've agreed and they might change, um, and you're dealing with partner stuff that we do in more than one partner. So yeah. So my next question would be then
Speaker 1 00:27:57 How, what are some tools in dealing with jealousy that comes up? Because, I mean,
Speaker 2 00:28:05 Well, I can show them, I can share what I, cause I just recently went through some serious jealousy. Um, and so I can kind of share what I did. Okay. Um, so we, uh, you know, with any in the poly community, you can, you know, you know, like what you kind of don't do you like don't want to like, sh just dive in and like, um, you want to have communication the whole time. You don't want to just kind of not expect express things, but at the same time, it's a double-edged sword. If your partner is too communicating, like expressing too much, then you can get really jealous or frustrated depending on what you're, what you're comfortable with. Right. Like you might not want to know all the details. But, um, so for me recently, um, it was the pandemic. We had been exposed to COVID and my youngest, my second son, um, like 13 year old, he had spent the night at a friend's house.
Speaker 2 00:28:55 And, uh, mom calls me after three nights and she says, Hey, by the way, I'm positive for COVID. And so we run our own business and we couldn't afford to quarantine the whole family and both of us, Joseph and I. So we decided to split up and split the family up and have just some of us be exposed and some of us continue on as normal so that they could interface with clients. So Joseph was going to do that and, um, I was going to go and take care of, you know, our kids. So, um, and then we have one child with special needs. So then he decided he was my, we were at a friend's house and she offered to watch him for two weeks. Um, so then what happened? And she's one of our dear friends. And, um, what ended up happening is that Joseph stayed there too while I was quarantined for two weeks.
Speaker 2 00:29:41 And, um, she's been interested in her for a years and I've known them. And when we decided to have the baby to have our baby and I w and I requested that we like bring it back in and be monogamous. He was cool with that, but, um, he'd always wanted to be exploring relationship with her. All of a sudden, he's staying at her house for two weeks and he's like asking me, Hey, can we open our relationship right now? And I'm like at the house of the baby and, you know, I've got the sick kids.
Speaker 2 00:30:21 Um, so, uh, anyway, so I'm like, no, well, at first I was like, no, no, no, that doesn't feel good to me. I'm feeling really stuck. But then I was like, Oh, okay. I guess I wasn't honoring my truth. And in that experience, and by not honoring my truth, I felt more jealous. And, um, why don't you come here, come here. Why don't I pause? And you and someone else, um, jealousy. I mean, I guess the way, you know, I think of, um, it's like, you know, jealousy is like a, it's a natural emotion. I think sometimes in the non-monogamy world, there's like, just, don't be jealous. You should let everybody be free and, you know, get over yourself. And it's like, you know what though? It's that, it's just, it's a normal human emotion to come out. I mean, no matter how practiced you are, like, I think there's, there's actually a recently listened to a talk on, uh, Facebook by Jessica she's coming out with a new book called poly secure.
Speaker 2 00:31:48 Um, gosh, what is Jessica Fern? Um, and she talks about attachment, like your attachment style and needing secure attachment in any relationship. If you're like in a committed relationship, this doesn't necessarily have to be like, you're just sexual casual partners or something. Um, and oftentimes like the jealousy or the, that feeling is because we're feeling some kind of, one of maybe two things, but it's like, we're feeling that the security and the relationship is threatened. And so, or there's right, like something's happening and somebody else is getting more than we are, or, you know, um, or our own insecurities come out. So that would be like the second thing. There's some kind of like relationship insecurity or there's something just in our own emotions and our own stuff. Right. That's coming up and both of them are actually, there's the opportunity for growth, um, where oftentimes if we feel right, it's like, we're, we, we act out of it like, well, you did this, you did that.
Speaker 2 00:32:44 You did that to me. Right. Like I'm slighted, uh, um, we're really, it's an opportunity to ask yourself like, Oh, what's happening for me? Right. Like what's, what's, what's underneath the jealousy, which usually is the lash out part. Um, and am I hurt somewhere? Am I needing something? Am I needing to reassure myself or do I need reassurance from my partner? Do we need something to reestablish security in the relationship? Um, you know, like Alana was saying, right. Like is I'm in a situation where like, I just, there's so much going on and I need the security and this is too threatening right now. Like, I actually needs more resources from you. And so, right. And so that's actually a different conversation than a little bit, isn't it? It's like then saying, like, I'm jealous, I pissed off at you. I can't believe you did that.
Speaker 2 00:33:29 Like, you're stuck in the jealousy would really there's stuff underneath it that, um, if you're able to be more present with it and kind of do some self work around it, it's like, then you can communicate it. You can give, do self care. So I'd say like what I do alive, I communicate with my partners a lot. Like we kind of have, I don't know if it's agreements, but, you know, just knowing that it's going to come up and what, you know, can we ask to set time aside if we notice that it's coming up and we really hold space for each other to talk about it, you know, and to, to say like, Oh, is there anything you need? Is there, is there something, you know, when I'm off doing something with my partner, do we need to have our own date night first? You need me, you know, um, do we need to say good night text every night, no matter who we're with, just to say like, Hey, you're still there. Right. Or things that we feel comfortable doing to maintain the relationship security. Um, and then I'm like, sorry, does that mean that you have like a
Speaker 1 00:34:24 Person then? When
Speaker 2 00:34:26 Is that what you're talking about? Um, well, there's the, how people do polyamory different. There's hierarchical. It's a total different topic. I, I wouldn't like, I wouldn't consider myself hierarchical where somebody say, I says, I have a primary partner, a secondary partner, that sort of thing. I'm more, um, has just talking about this with people. Like, I actually tune more to the relationships that I have. So, um, you know, like I've had a partner for a longer period of time. And so it just naturally, because we're been together for a longer period of time, there's more right. There's just more there. Um, there's more attachment needs in various ways. Um, or a newer partners that not so much. And you have new relationship energy and it's fun and it's free and you don't need to have quite as many agreements. So I think even that people do that really different too. I definitely have a primary partner. Um, and, uh, thank you.
Speaker 1 00:35:26 Yeah. I would say all that, all that, all the stuff that Sarah said, and also my learning, one of the big learning when I, I
Speaker 3 00:35:38 Would just mentioning that, you know, like I recommend people that, Hey, go through it is that idea, the, the emotional it's like actually feeling my emotions. So when we're talking about jealousy, like colic society basically tells us that it's bad, do not feel it right. Just, it just deal lit, lit, just put it on other people. Right. But I want to feed, so I want to feel all that. I'm a human, I have emotions and I want to feel, I want to feel anger on the food, joy on the field, sadness and jealousy. And then what, what does it even feel like? And then when I'm like really big, big takeaway of the idea that jealousy, when we use this word, I mean also maybe con uh, it, it comes down to because English isn't my first language. Right. So I like analyze with different words.
Speaker 3 00:36:32 What does it even mean? So like, jealousy to me felt like this big bundle, but then I took it apart. It's actually jealousy and envy. So not just one, like whenever you have bundled it all up. Uh, so I, I actually try to feel it. And when I'm feeling jealous right now, or I'm feeling envious right now. So for me, my learning came from is that I'm mostly dealing with envy. I don't really that much, but I like my partners, you know, like I don't really feel like jealousy is, to me, is the definition that something I have and I might can lose it. There's a fear in, and envy is that this like something I want, I really, I don't have it. I want it. Right. So for me, I kind of walk around, like, it doesn't have to be, even in a relationship I walk around, I see the whole world as like, I fucking want that. I want that all the time. I think it's a human thing. So like, for me, like with my partner, like one of the, one of the really funny thing happened is that I, how did he feel jealous? So I wasn't even dealing with it. But at one time there was like, I felt like something weird, like, is this jealousy? It wasn't even about she being within any, any other partner. She being with her best friend. And I was that way because the best friend is taking her away from me my time about partners.
Speaker 2 00:38:11 Yeah. That's such a good point too, because when we think about jealousy, we think about that like, Oh, the rage that comes with your partner, cheating or sleeping with somebody else and hat. Right. Um, and it actually, it shows up in various relationships like sibling relationships, parent-child relationships, friendships, you know, I mean, it shows up every, I can't believe they got the promotion that I didn't. I mean, whatever it is. So it's like, you know, and how do you, how do you, um, effectively regulate that within yourself? You know,
Speaker 3 00:38:41 And you were saying that, you know, it's, you know, it could be that <inaudible> style too. Right. So it's the jealousy, the lead. So then I tried to listen to it, is it, so if it's too jealousy where I might, there's a fear, I might lose whatever I have. So is it deeply true? Is she really trying to leave me? I hate that way. If it's not true, then I'm like, Hey, jealousy, you're I guess that I think going to show up right now, because she's not trying to lead me. Right. But, but envy on the other hand is hard to build with, and that's been my life's work. Right. And like, trying to figure out, I mean, I go with like, nature's philosophy where he says that envy is a good thing. Go for it. Whenever it shows up, I kind of deal with it then.
Speaker 2 00:39:31 That's really interesting. I like that. You said those things cause it's true. I think we just like put it into one category as jealousy. Yeah. But I think about myself being jealous, I definitely am envious all the time. And I think like, so for me, when I was feeling all that jealousy, when, you know, when he was staying, he was staying with, uh, with our friend. And, uh, and I was scared because I, I was jealous and envious both because I wanted the freedom to be able to be out and about. And I wanted that NRE that like lovey new relationship energy, I wanted to be able to fall in love. But then I was also afraid I was, I had both. And you know, and I also, what I decided to do is I was not being truthful to myself, you know, by saying, okay, okay, go ahead.
Speaker 2 00:40:19 Even though I didn't want that. And it was because I was feeling vulnerable because we just had a baby and body changes and all these things. Right. And so I'm, I'm like, I just really wanted that assurance. And so when I started on like reflecting and gardening and thinking, so that was another thing. I distracted myself from my feelings. I not to say, I didn't feel them. I felt them, but I didn't dwell. I like gave myself something to do. I made a garden, you know, I tended to the garden, I planted seeds. I wa you know, and then I also had kids. So I was distracted with that. But I, what I ended up doing is I was like talking a lot with my partner and just expressing my feelings and kind of helping to, I wrote about it. You know, I was like, I had reflected and journaled about what I was experiencing that was helpful.
Speaker 2 00:41:04 And, and then finally I just called her and I was like, Hey friend, you know her name. But I was like, Hey, I really want, um, I wanted to talk to you about this. And she was like, well, you know what, right now isn't a good time. I see that you're vulnerable. And I see that you're not in a space for this. So I'm not even, I'm not even going to entertain this idea because I don't want to hurt our friendship and our connection. And I think as a metaphor, like when you have a partner and you're seeing that they're struggling with another, like their, their partnerships are struggling and you can some space for empathy, connectivity, and compassion. You're setting yourself up for the long game. You know what I'm saying? So you might want this partnership, but if you take it right now, you could actually damage that their relationship, which then would, you know, could bring on all types of negative emotions to your relationship together as a two.
Speaker 2 00:41:51 You know? So I think that her response to that made me feel way, like way more relaxed or supported. I felt, um, I felt like I could trust her. And even though I wasn't ready to open a relationship and I was feeling forced to do so, um, I was able to sink into this like deep love and trust of my metamor, you know? Yeah. I mean, it ended up not happening, but it was, I think it was just really, um, for me, it really insightful to be able to see how she could read that situation so well, and she had such emotional intelligence around it that she was like, no, my I'm not ready. I'm not ready. I don't want to open this up. Like, I would love to explore this with you, but it's not time. You know? And I think timing is really crucial.
Speaker 2 00:42:33 Yeah. That, that reminds me of the word that this is a big word in non-monogamy world is compersion and comparison is this, this, um, gosh, where's my list. I'm going to, but it's basically this, this feeling or this, um, it's almost like the opposite of jealousy in a way where if you have enough trust or whatever it is with your partner, you actually start feeling happy that they're happy. You start feeling like you're excited for them. Like they get to go have a sexual experience there. Right. Like they're enjoy because they just met somebody new or their relationship that they've had for awhile is going really well. And you start feeling really like, happy for them, you know? Um, and, and sometimes getting that back to where your partner is, like, you know, I'm really happy that you get to like go through this sexual thing with somebody else, because that's not what we have, or I'm so excited that you get to, you know, because you're just really excited to give that kind of, um, openness or to give, like you're giving each other that freedom and supporting it. I mean, there's that support. Right. Um, and I've had it where I have compersion and jealousy at the same time. Yeah. Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 00:43:50 I am like, gosh, I'm so happy that you get to drink. It's going to make you like, right. Because there's this like deep empathy for this person where I'm like, I'm so excited for you. Like you really, like, I want you to feel this level of happy. Right. Um, and then also, but I want to feel that level of, you know, or so it's, it can be both at the same time, or I've had a lot of compassion for him. Metamoris like tons or right. And to say like, Oh, you know, why don't, you know, really feeling, um, not responsible for it, but very sensitive and empathic towards my partners, partners too. And I want to make sure that, you know, that everybody's communicating or that everything's okay and it's not like, Oh, that's the other right now. It's like, no, we're all a part of, we're all doing this.
Speaker 2 00:44:35 Like, we're all right. Um, I want to make sure everybody's like, how's that going? Right? Yeah. Yeah. I have a, I have one situation where the metamor like my partner ex well he's ex partner now, but his, his Metamora and I are better friends and more connected than they are since they broke up, you know, like, you know, creating that community together. That's pretty beautiful. And I wanted to quick mention that like jealousy is so natural, our little, you know, we have a one-year-old and she gets jealous all the time. The kids, the other kids will come to hug me, just hug me and she'll go and she'll run over and push them away. You know, it's like deal with this since we're little itty bitty babies. And, um, and I think that that's part of the dedication. Like one of the reasons I love these, you know, polyamory or ethical non-monogamy is because it gives you that opportunity to grow past these, these like, limitations that we have generally as humans, because we've said, no, no, we're not going to touch this topic.
Speaker 2 00:45:30 We're going to avoid it as much as possible and hide it. And you know, but jealousy, when you actually it's like any emotion, fear, pain, suffering, any of those things, as soon as you can, like, look at it, breathe into it, be present with it, hold it and not try to repress it. Then you can move through it. And I think that's my biggest takeaway from giving birth, honestly, at home is having had three for home birth in water. Like I'm not afraid to feel pain. I'm not afraid to feel jealousy. I'm not afraid to feel fear because those are the emotions that have brought me my most, like the greatest gifts of my life. Totally. It's like, we forget that there's other ways to deal with jealousy than controlling all of the elements outside of ourselves.
Speaker 1 00:46:10 Right. You know,
Speaker 2 00:46:12 It's, it's like, Oh, right. Like I'm feeling jealous. No, no, no. I have to control everything. This doesn't happen to you. Right. And it's like, wow, I'm feeling jealous. Can I give myself a ton of care? Does this, well, that's also blow, like blow through. Can I also see a different side of this? Is there a different way to meditate, to give myself a ton of love, to communicate with my partner so that they can, you know, give me some level of reassurance or support that maybe I didn't realize I needed. Right? Like, not as we think jealousy, and this is what happens with jealousy and you just make sure you never feel jealousy, or you find you, you think about who in your network of people. You can, you talk to about it that can help reassure you. That's not going to give you more poison. Oh yeah. You should be mad at him, but someone's going to give you compassion and love
Speaker 1 00:46:58 One. I got, I think about myself doing that and then so, so much fear. Yeah. Got it. I think it varies. I think about attachment styles. I think about childhood trauma. You know what I mean? Like how much, so much is triggered. Yeah. You know, and, Oh my God, the growth sounds like it was amazing. It would be feeding all the feelings and the idea that, you know, the people
Speaker 3 00:47:30 Lift on night throw around the phase of negative emotions. I feel like there's nothing. No, none of it is negative. I'd like, think about joy. Like, Oh, it's positive, emotional. We should feel the joy. Like what if you find joy by hurting people, right. That's kind of bad and you shouldn't lose. So that's a negative right there. So, so like all the feelings we should feel it. And then jealousy, as we all talked about there ways to, to deal with it being in a community, you know that right there.
Speaker 2 00:48:05 And that's such a difference too, right? Like as soon as you hear the word jealousy youth automatically, even in my mind, I think like, Oh God, everybody's going to fight and there's drama. Right. Um, and really it's like, what if, you know, it's like, well, can jealousy be something where you hold space for somebody and support them and give them love and care, right? Like, and while still giving love and care to other relationships and partners, is that possible? And it's like, actually, yes, but it's just everybody understanding themselves and practicing, right? Like being with their emotions and learning how to communicate and asking for what they need and learning how to give that. And it's messy. Sometimes this is not smooth sailing, but you know, it's so important when you're in an ethical phenomenon, monogamous relationship to know your truth and to like honor your truth and to speak your truth.
Speaker 2 00:48:57 Because if you just are like trying to go along with the other person or you're trying to control the other person, then what ends up happening is that it's just a hot mess, so much drama, and you end up agreeing to things you don't actually want sabotage. So it's so important to be true to yourself and to know, to be true to yourself. Sometimes you have to have long, hard conversations with people and be able to say, okay, what really makes me feel safe? And how can I feel connected enough to be like, okay, I can let you let you fly. You know, because I know that I'm safe in our relationship and I know what I'm saving myself. And like, but it's really, there's a lot of like, self-reflection that has to happen to know your truth. And oftentimes we learn our truths through not honoring our truth and understanding, okay, well that, wasn't my truth. That's not actually what I wanted. And sometimes retrospect is the best way to learn.
Speaker 3 00:49:49 I mentioned about community, like my partner, when she started she's like went to like meet up group to really talk to people and that wasn't working out. So she started her own and she's been running this group for like five years straight. So we just, just like this kind of conversation we get together once a month and we just bring up all the topics to talk about and then having this close knit community really helps. Um, so that, that's another way to like, if someone is interested, like finding
Speaker 2 00:50:26 Community is a big one too, like talking to people that are also open-minded at the very least, but at least, you know, um, you know, practicing it or have tried it or understand because they're not going to say, well, why are you doing giving like tons of judgments right. And judgemental. That's why you don't date more than one person. I wish I have touched, you know? So the advice is more leaning towards this normative monogamy committed escalator relationship, moving into marriage type of format. And so it's really, it is totally helpful in my processing of all this, getting all the resources and talking to people. And when I'm having a jealous moment or my monogamy programming has kicked in and I'm like, Hey, I can't make sense of this to have other polyamorous friends going, Oh, I get it. Okay. Like, yep. I'll hold the space for you.
Speaker 2 00:51:12 And right. Like help you walk through this one without shaming you for doing this. Right. So some of the hardest things about it, I think are like talking to family and like being able to like, cause I mean, my parents are like happily married and have been for my entire life. And I, so they like a hundred percent believe in monogamy and like, you know, my grandmother and all these people. And I remember like kind of like coming out or whatever, talking to them about it. And, um, they're totally against it, you know, but they, but they support me in their own way, but they think it's just crazy. And I remember my grandmother, she was like super mad about like at my, she just took all of this on misunderstanding and like directed it towards my ex-husband. And I was like, no, no, no, grandma it's okay.
Speaker 2 00:51:54 Like I chose this, like he didn't leave me. I chose, I had another lover and she was like, why just file it away under Ilana's crazy. And we'll move forward. But you know, it's of course it was really weird. But now like there's been times where a Christmas, big family event, they both big on Joseph and Jason would both come and like all hang out with all of my family and you know, for years and years with my smaller intimate family, but also with my greater, like, you know, extended family, they'd be there, both of them.
Speaker 1 00:52:27 Cool. That's awesome. You're like helping your, the other generation kind of grow in a way and open up.
Speaker 2 00:52:34 And, and even though like Jason and I weren't like intimate anymore, we were still, we still love each other and we would still like connect and it was like, I don't know. It was just really cool to see how that yeah. That shifted people's perspectives. I think he's probably ain't answer some of them judge me and talk shit behind my back, but I really don't care
Speaker 1 00:52:52 With it. A seed though. I mean, you know, like that some girls yeah.
Speaker 2 00:53:00 I'm happy and I tend not to care what other people think as long as I'm not harming them. You know? I, I just, yeah,
Speaker 1 00:53:07 I think that probably helps you guys. We have, um, we're going to wrap it up in like five minutes. I just wanted to let you know, as, um, if you wanted to have any like, uh, like last things to say,
Speaker 2 00:53:19 To say,
Speaker 1 00:53:20 Yeah, I totally like we could go on forever and ever talk about over God and I totally am loving this. It's amazing. I was going to say, how was it for you and you know, learning about it or, you know, I'm always curious, you know, I always feel like when I talk to people about this or I was like, Ooh, you know, and I'm like, it's normal and kind of like relationships. So it's not actually that, like, you know, I dated somebody who actually like two years ago who we're still friends and he will be on one of these episodes, love him. And he, he is polyamorous. So he's kind of the first one that introduced me to polyamory. I mean, it didn't go smooth things happened. We took some time away, like in our relationship. But, um, it was the first time that I ever really opened my mind up to POS the possibility of trying polyamory.
Speaker 1 00:54:11 I didn't get there. I still think about it though. Like it's still on the tip of my mind and I, and, and for the biggest reason would be for me to get over myself and my, my, like my jealousies and my insecurities and all that. Like, I just really want to move past that, honestly. And for me, I could be a sister way. I have to, like, if I know what's going on, I'm like, okay, cool. You know, like I could be best friends with a bunch of women or with men and women. And just, if I knew what was going on, whatever that is called, like a group, whatever Holly, Holly Hill, I could do that I could do that. Like, it would be so great. So it's fascinating.
Speaker 3 00:55:01 And then the last thing last thing to talk about, but yeah. And you were talking about that you might be interested in it. So I would say as a caution, I guess is to that self, you know, knowing yourself, it's kind of like on young, right? So you'd be like, yeah, I can do it one layer, but it just like it. You just have to do this cry all the way down. Right.
Speaker 1 00:55:30 I think one of the most important parts too, is that there are people who have joined the poly movement in, in a way of kind of being players. And it's important to really like, you have to, it's all about communication. Whether you do it in polyamory or monogamy, it's all about defining your relationships, understanding, you know, um, who you are. And like just having lots and lots of talks around this stuff. Even uncomfortable things, because you want it, you don't want it to be someone who's just like using it as an excuse to be like, hop, hop, hop, hop, you know, you want to be able to have, that's what you want. And if you know that that's cool, but you want to know you want to be on it.
Speaker 3 00:56:13 Well, honest about it. You need to say that to, to your people and to yourself, you know? Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:56:25 Really. This is what you're saying. It's like, it's all about communication, all about communication. And the ethical part is being honest and transparent. Even if it's hard, even if you really don't want to talk about it, even if, sometimes you don't want to hear it, it's just a good practice for yourself anyways. Like, Oh my God. Imagine like how much, yeah. How much like shift would come off of you and doing that. Yeah. You know what I mean? Totally. I mean, I've been in situations where people like hated me and this is a small town in Costa Rica because I was openly polyamorous and they were all cheating on each other. Everybody was cheating on everybody else, but they didn't want to talk about it. And so everything was okay, but there was all this deep resentment and frustration and pain and suffering just under the surface, which is why they directed it all at me because I was open about it. So you have to, you just have to like sometimes guard yourself, but at the same time, be like super vulnerable.
Speaker 3 00:57:21 Yeah. No, I'm super good friends with my ex and she's like, I can never do it. I would rather have men cheat on me then be like this way. Right. Because she just can't,
Speaker 2 00:57:37 That's
Speaker 3 00:57:37 A lot of work. Right. That works. Like, I mean, she's, she's dated so many people and people cheated on her. He like, I would rather deal with that than this, this, whatever he was doing. And I'm like, well, okay.
Speaker 2 00:57:52 Yeah. If, if, if, you know, if people are doing, you know, like real ethical non-monogamy, it's not, it's actually not just people sleeping around with people and who cares. Right. It's, it's actually, you know, you're, you're invested in the relationships no matter how, like, even if it is just a one night thing, right? Like you're still ethically having the conversations, getting consent, really understanding is this okay? Is that are trying your best to anyway, growing through your own stuff. If you're, I mean, it's, it is, it's a it's communication consent knowing yourself, um, you know, finding partners that are collaborative and on the same path, I'd say is a big one. I do a lot of vetting. It's not really bedding, but it's just, I'm really like, I take a lot of time asking questions and really understanding and really letting somebody know this is where I am.
Speaker 2 00:58:40 Are you on the same page with this? We're at whatever we decide on relationally. Um, and I think that's really important for the ethical part. Anyway, it's so important. And I just want to mention too, that there are people who are abusive in every realm. So, you know, you also, like she was saying bedding, like knowing like, is this person like emotionally mature enough to be able to do this? Is this person someone I want to grow with? You know, if it's just something that's just, you know, a quick, you know, fun adventure that's okay. But like, it's just, like we're saying, like Sarah was saying, being honest about it is really important. And, um, and watching out for signs, I mean, you just, you do like, you don't want to be in an abusive relationship, whether you're monogamous polyamorous, but the thing about a polyamorous abusive relationship is that you can, you have other people to reflect to you what's going on. So it's not just you in this vicious cycle, you're able to talk to other partners and be like, this is happening. They're like, Oh, well, that's not good. You should step out or you should talk about it or whatever it is like, you know, it's, it's nice because it is a community. And I think that's really, um, the foundation is ethics, connectivity, and like, collaboration are so important when you're polyamorous. I love that.
Speaker 1 00:59:52 Well, thank you guys so much for, for meeting and talking and sharing and educating me and other people. I totally appreciate it. Each one of you.
Speaker 2 01:00:06 Yeah, this is great. Fantastic.
Speaker 1 01:00:11 What's that?
Speaker 2 01:00:12 Oh, I said, thank you. Okay.
Speaker 1 01:00:15 Thank you. You guys kicked off the first episode of the series that I'm planning on doing for polyamory, right? Because there's lots to talk about is
Speaker 2 01:00:25 There is, and thank you all for your patience. With my juggling children. It was a lot, a lot there for a minute. Maybe it's so sweet. They are, they are. And honestly, like having had an polyamorous relationships with children is super enriching to the children, unless there's a ton of drama and it's bad, you know, but with the people that are in it with me there, it's just incredibly lovely and I promote it. That's awesome.
Speaker 1 01:00:53 Awesome. All right. You guys have a good night. Thank you.
Speaker 0 01:00:57 You so much. Bye guys. Wherever you are.
