Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:11 Hi, welcome to the datable rebels. I am a fair Fisher. We are doing a podcast today on toxic masculinity. Um, my guest is grey Doolin, M E D. They, them is a transgender desire and sexuality coach, a performer, a professional top, and the divine daddy. They help women name acknowledged and explore their desires using their framework, the embodied manifestation method, after going from a life March by severe depression addiction and the effects of trauma to one of embodiment, integration and deep connection, grazes their own body, energy field, and Olympic residents to mentor others into embodiment and presence via group coaching and groundbreaking one-on-one intimacy intensive. Greg has been featured on and the net appeared and paving the ways podcasts Greg has helped. Thousands of people become more intimate with their own experience and more connected to themselves. Yay and welcome, Greg. Um, so a lot of people, it seems like I put a post on Facebook and it seems like there is some confusion about what toxic masculinity is or means.
Speaker 1 00:01:31 Um, so I looked it up on Google shame and some common toxic masculinity traits or themes are mental and physical toughness, aggression, um, not displaying emotion using threatening violence, controlling others. What do we mean when we say toxic masculinity, toxic masculinity involves cultural pressures for men to behave a certain way. So also say the patriarchy is gonna bleed into this obviously, um, meant to make men need to be tough and avoid showing all emotions can be harmful to the mental health and can have serious consequences for society, which is how it became known as toxic masculinity. I put a post up on Facebook and there were a few people I want to say men because they were men. Um, so that toxic masculinity doesn't exist. We're going to talk about this. So join us. Love. How can you hear that this meeting is being recorded? That's consent. So
Speaker 2 00:02:44 Great.
Speaker 1 00:02:47 All right. So here we are with gray Doolin talking about toxic masculinity. Ooh.
Speaker 2 00:03:00 I mean,
Speaker 1 00:03:01 I seriously feel like this could go on. This could be a week long podcasts.
Speaker 2 00:03:08 Yeah. I could do like a four-part series easily.
Speaker 1 00:03:13 So I, so I put, I put a post up on Facebook and then I got a lot of responses and some of the responses that I got from men, I think there were like two or three that one of them straight up said, toxic masculinity doesn't exist. And then a few other ones were talking about toxic, feminine femininity, sort of word. Yeah. And, you know, like comparing it to toxic masculinity. And so I feel like in that it's like deflecting. Um, and I feel like not heard And I don't, I guess I just don't understand, you know, like what, how do you not see what toxic face?
Speaker 2 00:04:06 Yeah. Well, when you had sent that question over, right? Like how do you respond to someone who's like, it doesn't exist. And I feel like my immediate response was like, I'm not here to convince anyone of anything. Like, it feels actually like a, not a good use of my energy at all. Um, or anyone's energy actually. And I think that, you know, you posing those questions, even people who want to be in this conversation and the people that I work with, like those are the folks like those are the folks that want to have these conversations with, you know, like who are even if it is like, it's just starting to creep in a little bit, but they're like, Ooh, something isn't quite right here. Or I know that I have the capacity to relate in a different way, or I know that there is like just a way that I can be in my body or in my feelings or in relationship and connection with other people that feels better than what this currently does. Those are the folks that like, like let's let, let's have conversations with those folks, you know, who like have some interest and curiosity. I want to unpack this a little bit.
Speaker 1 00:05:03 Yeah. I agree. Um, I don't, I didn't, I don't reply to any of those things I want to, but I'm like, no, it's good. This is gonna, you know, talk amongst themselves. And so, um, yeah, that was interesting. But in any ways,
Speaker 2 00:05:25 I dunno if you want it to, to your point, I think about the toxic femininity. I think that there is both the wounded masculine and the wounded feminine, and I think that there are, yeah, absolutely. And I think that there are both. So, um, so I hear that sort of like deflection and I think that, again, as conflict comes up in relationship, I think there is a little bit of like you want to be heard and what it's like to be a female body person on the receiving end of toxic or wounded masculine. And I think that like men as are like, Hey, but I'm also experiencing this from like my female partners or from the feminine. And like, I want to be seen in that too, you know?
Speaker 1 00:06:04 Yeah. Yeah. I see that. Yeah. There's just so much. Um, so I'm going to ask you some questions. Um, all right. So in what ways do you feel you've played in, played into the toxic masculinity?
Speaker 2 00:06:30 Like into the culture of,
Speaker 1 00:06:32 Yeah, like,
Speaker 2 00:06:34 Yeah, I think just as like a person born into our culture where like women are, um, sort of villainized or sort of misogyny, like just all things, feminine energy or hated. I think that all of us have internalized that kind of like toxic culture around that. Um, and I was trying to think of like a specific example, I think for me, like, I'm sure there've been times, especially as I have progressed in my transition and, and read as in the world as a cisgender male, not a trans person. Like I'm sure that there are, that I've like brought out with like dudes before around probably objectifying or sexualizing women in some way. Like they didn't know I was trans and here I was caught up in this moment. I feel like the added piece of complexity though is around, um, like my safety in that though.
Speaker 2 00:07:30 Like if I stand up to that culture or like, do I, uh, I mean, it's kind of like white people being complicit in racist jokes, you know, like if you just laugh along or don't say anything, are you, um, saying that that's okay, like same sort of way around if I don't say, Hey guys, let's not talk about women like that. Or, you know, like, am I complicit in that as well? So those, I think the answer is yes. And like also things to think about. Um, and then I also like always an ongoing work with my own like issues around control and rigidity and, um, thinking that I need to be self-sufficient, which I think that those can all be traits of like big wounded masculine about being an island and just being like, you need to control things, you know?
Speaker 1 00:08:22 Yeah. I've played into the toxic masculinity for sure, by like telling dirty jokes and, you know, slapping my friend's asses it's stuff like that, for sure.
Speaker 2 00:08:38 Well, but where's the line between kind of like sexy raunchy bond with one another. I like it. Right, exactly. Exactly. Yup.
Speaker 1 00:08:50 And I mean, we did that's it was all consent. Like we, we all know each other, we're all this, this was kind of what we did, you know, but now we don't, we don't do that anymore. Maybe sometimes, but you know what I mean? Like it was back in like 10 years ago or whatever. Um, Yeah, I would say that's how I, that's how I played into it.
Speaker 2 00:09:14 Yeah. I mean, it runs deep, like it is, it's like deep and all of us, you know,
Speaker 1 00:09:21 Well, my, one of my friends, uh, commented on there. She was saying, when she goes through, you know, like what she's going to wear for the day and how she likes to wear tight fitting clothes, you know, what is that? Why do I like that? Is that because, you know, so somebody thinks that it's attractive or is it because I actually like it? You know what I mean?
Speaker 2 00:09:43 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:09:45 So it does go deep.
Speaker 2 00:09:47 Right. And does that difference matter? Like, can it be both like, is it right? Like, can I feel hot in this and like, is it okay to want to be desired or to receive attention from men or at people, you know,
Speaker 1 00:10:02 I think it can be, but I think now, because there's like such a change happening. Oh, it's so interesting right now. Cause it's like, yeah. Sometimes I almost would feel bad if, if, you know, if I was trying to look hot for some guy or whatever, you know what I mean? Like I'd be like, fuck that. I'm doing it for myself. And I mostly do do it for myself because it makes me feel good, you know? Yeah. But yeah, the, yeah. Um,
Speaker 2 00:10:39 I think that like our culture though, of like objectification, sexualizing women, I think that, that, I think that that's where some of that like pushback comes from though. Like if, you know, if you imagine a world where like women's body parts, like when objectified, like it would sort of take it just, I think that there would be a sense of like freedom around showing up how you wanted to, because it felt sexy to you. Cause there wouldn't be any outside forces like impacting that decision at all, you know?
Speaker 1 00:11:09 Right. It would be totally different. Yeah. So I feel like we're trying to undo a lot of that stuff right now in a way, um, you know, there was another comment about, um, being confused about what toxic masculinity is. So, so maybe like some like shivering, shivering. Yeah. Um, is that considered toxic masculinity? That some people, some people, they think that that is, they don't want someone open their door. They don't want, you know, someone to pay for their, whatever food so
Speaker 2 00:11:53 You can buy me dinner.
Speaker 1 00:11:58 I know. Right.
Speaker 2 00:12:02 Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Well that, I think that, um, well one that's like a personal preference around, do people want doors open for them? Or, you know, like, but that in of itself is not toxic. I think we were talking about toxic or we didn't ask you when we were talking about, um, the, the like control and the anger and the rage and the like anti anything that would like sort of emasculate or imply feminine energy. Like so showing emotion or like not being competitive, you know, just this like real sort of hyper-masculine I can't show weakness. I can't show anything that resembles femininity because that is like the worst ever to be seen in that way. But I think that, again, I just in the conversation about, you know, you dressing up and same thing with like, due to like, do we have this sense of chivalry or the, the stepping into healthier divine, masculine energy, or it it's about holding a container where it is about leading that, like, because of the toxicity as sort of like bastardized or like let this residue on healthy or divine masculine behavior. And so there's just been a push push against sort of everything masculine and that's it's this right. People are confused. People are hurt. Like that's, I mean, that's what we're saying is that people are like, what? This doesn't feel good, this doesn't feel good, but I don't know what to do with all of this, you know?
Speaker 1 00:13:30 Well, I think it goes with, you know, whenever something changes, it seems like it'll go from one extreme to the next, until it settles into a place of balance, but that's going to take a long time.
Speaker 2 00:13:43 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we're in it, we're in the work right now, you know?
Speaker 1 00:13:48 Yeah. We are. Um, so speaking of work, like it wa doing your work, you know, the work that you do and body movement, helping people feel comfortable in their bodies. Right. And I think I shouldn't, well, I think a lot of people don't feel comfortable in their bodies, you know? Yes. Is there, is there, like, what is the connection with like sexuality and not feeling comfortable in your body? Is there any thing that would connect to this toxic masculinity thing with the work that you do?
Speaker 2 00:14:29 Yeah. I mean, I think whether we're talking about toxic masculinity or like the wounded feminine or sexuality or any of these energies, like it's all about precedence. I mean, embodiment simply as being present with the sensations that are happening in your body at any given moment. And so it's about like intimacy with self it's about noticing, right? Like when I'm engaging with someone, like when someone comes and opens the door for me, what happens in my body? Like, what are the sensations that come up? Do I feel offended? Do I like that? But I don't want to let myself like that. So I kind of like push it away. Like what? So it's just like, I mean, all of that is, you know, one of the questions was about like how, how have I helped people heal around like toxic masculinity and like, it's, this is, we're all doing this individual work that is really contributing to the, like our collective shifter around this. But we have to understand what is happening in our own system here with both of these energies, because like, you also have masculine energy within you. Right. And we're, and so how do these different parts show up? Like how do we integrate them? How do we let one lead more than the other? Like, it just it's really about awareness.
Speaker 1 00:15:42 Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Just thinking about the masculine, feminine energies that we have and you know, how sometimes one could never power the other, you know, and like maybe you might not feel comfortable feeling masculine, but you might need to be in your masculine.
Speaker 2 00:16:07 Totally.
Speaker 1 00:16:09 And that's okay.
Speaker 2 00:16:11 It is okay. Yeah. Although it's really interesting is that a lot of the women who reach out to me about working with me, um, are often spend much of their time in their masculine. And what they're really desiring is to allow themselves to surrender like into their divine feminine is like, they're not getting from their partner, their male partners. Um, oftentimes they're not stepping into the masculine role because the woman is embodying that more. But what the woman is really wanting is to sort of be overtaken by that masculine energy to surrender to it, to like, to like receive it fully. It's a very receptive energy. And so again, it's this tension, I think that we've been talking about where I think because of the culture that we live in and that sort of threat of violence and lack of safety for women, there has been this overcorrection around being the masculine and like, so I'm in a force safety by controlling things. And by being in charge, by getting this done, instead of sort of toggling back and forth between yeah. You need to like take action and get stuff done and sort of have that penetrative energy sometimes. And like, we all need to be in our receptive, like inner, like feminine energy too. Like it's a, it's the balance.
Speaker 1 00:17:26 So that's interesting, like you get a lot of females that come to you and they want, they want that. But because they're being like more masculine in the masculine energy, their partners are like, uh,
Speaker 2 00:17:37 Yeah, well, they want to, I mean, essentially they want to learn how to lean into their submissive side.
Speaker 1 00:17:44 That's hard, that's so vulnerable. That is so vulnerable, you know, and like, yeah, yeah, I get it.
Speaker 2 00:17:57 Yeah. It was vulnerable. And I think, you know, intimacy happens at those critical points of vulnerability. And so I think that there's something about being in the masculine all the time that doesn't allow that deceptive vulnerability to come in. And when we, we don't have that, like we're going to crave it. Right. Like we wanted it, we're going to crave it or it's going to leak out in these other ways. And so yeah. So they reach out to me and yeah. And then, so then we talk about like how to like move more into that place.
Speaker 1 00:18:30 That's really cool. That's great work. Awesome. Um, so here's another question. What work have you done on yourself through transitioning? What has your experience been and what has come up that has, that was a surprise to you As far as like fabulous, feminine, masculine sort of,
Speaker 2 00:18:57 Yeah. Um, I've done an immense amount of work. Um, I feel like my integrative identity is sort of required it of me. Um, and I was assigned female at birth and, you know, lived in the world as like a assist woman was read as a woman. Um, I mean for most of my life. And um, and like in that time, you know, like in the, I like also live in this sort of toxic masculine culture. And so like, yeah, I had shitty boyfriends and was I just, I had a lot of like really like ouchy or like harmful experiences with men and like carried that like with me in my body. And so as I began to like shift or transition more into my like, um, feeling of masculinity, like internally and so like wanting to represent that externally, so that those aligned, I had to like get really real with.
Speaker 2 00:19:59 I was like, okay, so here I am as a less sort of like feminine bodied or like non binary person really craving masculinity. I feel like I hate men. Like despised them. Don't want them to be like, I just don't want anything to do with them. Um, you know, when I like came out as a lesbian at 19, I was like, see you do, I was just like done. Um, and I was like, okay, well, this is interesting because in order for me to be masculine, I'm going to have to reconcile my issues with masculinity or else. Like, I can't be someone that I hate. Right. Like I'm like actively working against that right now, which is to like, be my authentic self. So I have to just, I have to unpack and sit with all of that hurt and like all of these instances and, and stuff that came up, um, just historic lead, like let myself just like, feel sad or feel hurt or feel fucking pissed.
Speaker 2 00:20:53 Like just let myself have all of the dealings about it as I like shifted more into my masculinity. And I think, well, an amazing thing about that though in the way that I have done my sort of evolution is that, but then I got to be really intentional about the kind of masculine I want to be in the world. And like that, I think it was just like one of it's just been such a gift to be like, well, I have all of these examples of who I don't want to be both that I can see externally and that I witnessed or experienced in my own life. So how do I want to do this? Like what type of masculine person do I want to be? You know? Um, but one of the biggest surprises was like I said, when I came down at 19 as a lesbian and I, you know, I had like dated men and men, boys in high school.
Speaker 2 00:21:40 Um, and like first year in college, but then I came out of lesbian and that was like SIA. And I don't for like 16 years. I mean, for most of my like adults, like sexual life. And then like four years ago, as I came was reconciling my relationship with masculinity of this like desire for like sexual intimate relationship with men and ask them when people came up and I was like, you gotta be kidding. Yeah. Gotta be kidding me no way. Now I have to like figure this out too, you know? Yeah. So I had to, I mean, this was part of the healing. That was a part of like, did I feel safe to desire men? Did I feel safe to be desired by them? Um, and it took me four years to get there. I mean, it was a long, like four years.
Speaker 2 00:22:28 It's a long time to be in that process before I finally let myself have like sexual relationship with men again. And so is that where you are now? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I ha I'm I identify as queer, so I have sex with lots of people, but lots of people. Yes. And lots of different gender. Um, and but yes, I am very like gratefully or like, I feel it allows me to live into the range of my desire, which is that I like love system women. Like I love women so much. And like, just, and like, and I love also my sexual experiences with men. It's like, uh, and I feel like my spectrum of sexuality and my desire to fulfillment wouldn't be as full if I was like cutting parts of those part of that out. And you feel safe with men now? I do.
Speaker 2 00:23:28 Yup. And there have been, you know, it's been like a learning process. I think I had to get myself up to a certain point where I was like, okay, I'm ready to take this risk. And then, you know, there've been moments where like, I've like bumped up against things that like, didn't really feel very good or like hurt a little bit. But like, but in those moments, I think that because I felt safe enough in myself and I trusted myself enough to know that regardless of what, whatever I came up against, I will be okay. That like, when I came up in those moments, I could like have my little feels about it if I needed to. But then it helped me like define boundaries and like helped me, um, develop my standards to be like, I'm not going to like this. I'm not available for this anymore. I'm not available for this and how build. And so like, as that clarity happened, then the kinds of men are calling in and the kinds of experiences I've just gotten better and better because of my clarity around what I will and won't put up with.
Speaker 1 00:24:23 That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Like I was saying, when, um, before we started recording, there was like a post that you said, and it was something like, I, don't not, not you, but your broke this. Like, do you feel like you don't like men, but you, but you want to date them, you know? And so it's like, yeah. And we were saying, I think a lot of women feel that way.
Speaker 2 00:24:52 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:24:53 I feel that way.
Speaker 2 00:24:55 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:24:58 What I do.
Speaker 2 00:25:00 Yeah. But which, and I also say my posts, which is, we're talking about safety, you know, like, do I feel safe with men? Do I trust myself with them? Do I trust my heart to them? You know? Right.
Speaker 1 00:25:12 Yeah. Right. And that's work that we need to do, you know, ourselves to be able to trust ourselves enough, to know, you know, like you were saying, you know, you get to redefine the boundaries and they get to set boundaries and stuff like that's our work to do so we can see those things if we feel safe or not.
Speaker 2 00:25:34 Yeah. A hundred percent.
Speaker 1 00:25:37 But it's a, it's a lot, it's a long road.
Speaker 2 00:25:43 Yes. Yeah. I think it can be. And, and are there ways, right. Which I think that, that can feel really daunting or overwhelming sometimes with this idea that like, I need to be a hundred percent shield or in this place in order to, to have what I want. And I think that, that, like that's a myth or a story that we can tell ourselves. No, no. Part of the developing safety with yourself as is, um, engaging with what you're like sort of mulling over is to like take risks. I mean, within, you know, your window of tolerance. So you aren't like just overwhelming yourself. Cause then you, you won't go back out there. Um, but yeah, just bit by bit beginning to build trust with yourself, like in interactions with men.
Speaker 1 00:26:31 Yeah. Yeah. Um, I was thinking I was kind of putting toxic masculinity and with the patriarchy. Do you think that there's a connection?
Speaker 2 00:26:47 Yeah. I think toxic masculinity as a result of the patriarchy.
Speaker 1 00:26:55 Yeah. And it's just a lot, it's just a lot, but I'm glad that we're talking about it and you know, I just, yeah. There's a lot of stuff to say about it. I don't have any more questions though. Or do I, maybe I do. Yeah, this will, well, this was the same one. It was like, you know, many meds I supposed to feel bad and cancel for being what our grandfathers and fathers were taught to be hardworking protective providers. So that's what I was saying. There's a misconception of what toxic masculinity means. So
Speaker 2 00:27:58 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that it's just an invitation to, I mean, I'm not sure that like men of that generation were like super in touch with their feelings either, but I think the it's just, if their invitation to like presence and feelings like expanding, what is sort of acceptable in terms of gender role norms and, and what emotions men can feel. Um, and like that level of vulnerability, I think that's like, that's, there's just like a sort of softening quality there, you know, um, instead of needing to like kind of puff up and prove something like, there's nothing to prove. Um, like people want to be connected. Like people want intimacy, you know?
Speaker 1 00:28:52 Yeah. People want to be heard, they want to be understood. They want to be connected. They want, you know, and so it has to be hard, you know, being on the other side of that work for so long, you know, there's a message of don't show your feelings. Don't, you know, don't be soft, don't be a pussy, all that. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:29:13 Yeah. There was a, so this was like early on in my transition, like sort of right around the time where people began to like read me as like a CIS man in public settings. And I went to this wedding with my girlfriend at the time. And there was, I mean, I just began like, this is the first time that I was feeling sort of like inducted into this culture that I had never had access to before and sort of hanging out with men. But there was this moment, there was like an open bar at the wedding and the, it was just wider red wine. And I didn't drink wine at the time. And so I just got like a bourbon on the rocks or whatever. And so we went back and set up this table and there was this other couple there. And the guy was like drinking white wine and his girlfriend upon seeing the beverage that I had chosen, like absolutely emasculated him in front of the entire table.
Speaker 2 00:30:05 And I was like, oh, I was like, this is like, this is real. Like, oh my God. Like, I don't even know that I would have like, lived on my radar, but like being invited, sort of like into this like gender game as a person who would now was like Butch masculine with my bourbon on the rocks. And as compared to this like, man with his white wine, like who the fuck cares, what he, like, what he drinks has nothing to do with his masculinity. It just, but then to like have that public, redisplay it. I was just like, this is, this is part of the experience and like the policing around what it means to be a man and just like, holy shit. That's like, you know, it's an impossible game, you know?
Speaker 1 00:30:50 Wow. Yeah. And I mean, that's like, yeah, it's in our culture. It's what we do is, yeah. I remember I was at this, I was at this art party and there was this woman who did not know me. And I was at, at that point, it was like maybe three years ago. And I was just really like forming my boundaries and not, you know, I was not okay with people touching me that didn't know me. Don't fucking do it.
Speaker 1 00:31:22 So she was spanking my ass and my boyfriend at the time was egging her on. And it was like, yeah, yeah. And I was like, dude, I'm not okay with it. That was not okay. Just because there was a woman that did it doesn't matter. Yes. It was a person that I didn't want. No, I don't want anyone touching me. Yes. Because of the tender. It's not okay. And it was just so interesting to have, you know, this person that I was with and I trusted and I was just, and that he was just okay with it. And in fact, rooting her on. It made me so mad.
Speaker 2 00:31:59 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, just this right. That's like goes to this right. Women's bodies are for consumption or that like, you don't like that they don't have agency over who touches them when, regardless of gender, you know? Yeah. Fuck that.
Speaker 1 00:32:18 Yeah. Okay. We can also go into like, you know, PayScale for men and women and, you know, just, just how you're saying women's bodies and the way that we dress and, and rape all that stuff. I mean, I do feel like we are getting to a better place with it in a way. I also feel like we all need to, you know, be aware and there is, yeah, there is toxic, you know, female stuff too, for sure.
Speaker 2 00:33:00 Yup.
Speaker 1 00:33:02 I guess like, I don't see it as much being a woman and maybe that's just because I'm not looking for it. It must be, you know, because I have relationships, like I have friendships relationships with women, but I don't have like sexual relationships with women. So it's, I feel like when you have that, no, no, that's not right. Either because yeah, I guess I just don't see it as much.
Speaker 2 00:33:31 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that makes like, it makes that kind of sense to me. I feel like one, well, the feminine energy, it's just like more internal to you. Like, it just feels like an experience like outside versus inside. And so I don't, I just feel like I'm like, of course you could like have more clear scene about something that was kind of like outside of you, but like wounded, feminine, right. Is like it's, I think both wounded, masculine and feminine is this, like, it's just a releasing of power. So it's like about, you know, like you aren't present. I think for women that it can like show up as sort of like emotional chaos or manipulation, um, like a low sense of self worth. Um, just like, uh, a giving away of power a lot instead of sort of stepping into this like, like goddess self, um, and like really taking ownership of, um, emotional landscape and needs and ones and all of that. Yeah. It's a much, it is much less talked about than toxic masculinity though. Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1 00:34:45 I might be called crazy bitch. I'm not sure. Do you think?
Speaker 2 00:34:53 Well, I mean, I'm laughing, but I'm also like, oh, I mean like, even, but like even like listen to how we categorize that though. Right. Is that right? Is that right? Men are toxic if they act this way. That's why I do like the word, like wounded a little bit better, because I think that it just, it speaks to that. Right. We've all had these traumas or runes and it's impacting the way that we should open our relationships, you know,
Speaker 1 00:35:21 All of our relationships. Yes,
Speaker 2 00:35:24 Yes.
Speaker 1 00:35:25 Yeah. I mean, I definitely see my wounded feminine stuff with like my groups of female friends, you know, like certain that come up and I'm like, shit, there's that stuff. My mom or my grandma, or, you know what I mean? All the women. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:35:45 Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah. That's like our mother wound, um, so raised that we weren't like nurtured or, you know, given what we were needed or like that nourishment, like absolutely. You know?
Speaker 1 00:35:59 Yeah. It's so important to, to give that to ourselves now, you know, any of that, any way that we can, that's healthy.
Speaker 2 00:36:11 Yeah. Yeah. I think that, I don't know if I saw it was in the questions or again, and I think that I've already said this. I think that this is less about how do we go out there and change the culture. And it's like, how do we begin to take responsibility that we like have both of these energies within us and begin to do that healing work? Like that's like, that is our biggest job is to stop looking around and being like, I can't find a good fucking guy anyway, like anywhere, like what's up, like it's a men's problem. And it's like, okay, like, yeah. But like also like, what's like, what's going on for you? You know? Like let's, what's a really up to that. Let's like, unpack that a little bit, you know?
Speaker 1 00:36:54 Right. Like what's the daddy would, what's the mom wound. What's like all that stuff. Yes. Cause really that's where it does start. And that's the only place you can go to really feel it.
Speaker 2 00:37:06 Yes. Yeah. Yes. I mean, they'll sort of like reparenting themself and, and then like, I think at a certain point is to like have corrective experiences in relationship with the people who are able to give those to you. But, but I feel like as many of us myself included like Jesus Christ, like until there's like, we just keep playing out. I mean, we keep calling in people who just are going to trigger that stuff over and over until to like show us what still needs to be healed around that. And it can be dramatic and painful and unexpected and sort of knock you off your side. Like that's but it's familiar. It's also really familiar, you know?
Speaker 1 00:37:52 Yeah. To get out of that, like, okay. Cycle. It's just, yeah. I just did some, uh, just had some EMDR work week and a half ago. Cause I was having some, some triggers with, you know, mom and dad's stuff with the relationship I'm in and um, it really does help. It really, really does help.
Speaker 2 00:38:17 Yeah. Yeah. EMDR any other like somatic based therapies. Yeah. Get that shit out of your body. Like that's like process it out. Yep. It is not a mental, mental talking about is not enough.
Speaker 1 00:38:32 Yeah. No fuck. No. Yeah. And I forget that I can do, you know, like this, when I'm in the, you know, the trigger it's like, what do I do? Ah, you know, so just to, yeah. To take a pause, but um, I was going to ask you a question. I forgot.
Speaker 2 00:38:54 I don't know.
Speaker 1 00:38:59 Um, I don't remember.
Speaker 2 00:39:05 No, it was an EMDR related therapy related. Oh,
Speaker 1 00:39:08 Oh. Do you have any suggestions that are,
Speaker 2 00:39:12 Oh,
Speaker 1 00:39:18 'cause some people might not even know what that means. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:39:21 Uh, I mean, again, like this is, you know, I just, my like biggest thing is about intimacy with self. Like you like beginning to get familiar with those parts of you that are hurting, you know? So like tapping into these like younger, like inner child cells. Cause we have to like familiarize ourselves with them enough to then bring our parent forward to say, to like give them what we didn't get that we like had an absolute right to as a child. Like it's just a lot of listening and a lot of being able to provide, um, to provide to them what we didn't get. And like, sometimes that looks like, I don't know, hugging a pillow or sort of like holding yourself or like stroking your own cheek. Like it can look like that or it can be like taking yourself to an arcade or like, you know, doing, I, it doesn't have to all be serious. I think it's just about like Gideon relationship with yourself. But I think for folks who don't have a lot of experience and no judgment here at all, but like, aren't very fluent in understanding what they need or what they want. Um, like you have to like be tapped into that at some point to, to begin to access that like inner child. Cause they're, they're coming to you with needs.
Speaker 1 00:40:43 Yeah, my therapist, just to, um, I was there, I was when, when I could go on person to her, but when I maybe like a year and a half ago I was sitting there and she's had me sit on her couch and close my eyes and picture my, my five-year-old it's my five year old, my 12 year old, my 12 year old was like, fuck you for my, what to do. I don't care. You know, super rebellious. And then my five-year-old is like super sad and like really sweet and you know what I mean? So like, so she had me visualized talking to both of them and telling them that I was going to protect them and you know, that they were going to be safe and it was really cool experience. Yeah. I felt like I connected actually.
Speaker 2 00:41:28 Yeah. Yeah. It's deeply powerful work.
Speaker 1 00:41:32 Yeah. So toxic masculinity. I don't know. I mean, I feel like it's unlike a lot of things.
Speaker 2 00:41:48 I mean it's everywhere. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:41:51 But like it's an, a lot of things and for us to do our own inner self work on the feminine and the masculine cause we, cause we do have both. Yup.
Speaker 2 00:42:02 Yeah. Yeah. And right. I mean just like an easy exercise to, you could like begin to just pay attention to, um, right. I'm guessing that maybe some listeners are like, well, I'm a guy, so of course I'm in my masculine more and that's not necessarily the case, you know? Right. Um, but you can begin to pay attention to our stories that you have around what it means to be a man or what you are and are what you are and aren't allowed to do. I mean, we just have all of these stories about what's possible for us as women and men and like everything in between, you know?
Speaker 1 00:42:47 Yeah. It can be limiting for sure.
Speaker 2 00:42:51 Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, a few years ago when I was working as a consultant, I'm an educator around like, uh, trans competence issues, working with schools and nonprofits. And like one of the main points that I always made was that gender role norms like hurts all of us. Like not just trans people or gender non-conforming people. And I would like make these might participants write on little post-its like beliefs that they had been given about what it means to be a man or a woman. As many of them were like very sad. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:43:23 That's a good idea.
Speaker 2 00:43:24 Yeah. And P right. And I think that it, like, one of the things I loved about that exercise was watching it like Dawn on people who were like 60 years old who were just like, holy shit, I've been like, I've been walking around with this belief or this has been impacting my whatever. Or like yeah. Just like watching a sort of dawned on people that, that these stories lived inside of them that they hadn't ever taken the moment to like consider or to unpack or to release like it was yeah.
Speaker 1 00:43:57 Wow. You changed some people's lives that day.
Speaker 2 00:44:02 Yeah. I've changed lots of people's lives Farrah. Yes.
Speaker 1 00:44:11 I never thought about that.
Speaker 2 00:44:12 Yeah. I know such small things like that's yeah. I feel like in that work and in this work, like I stand by, I think oftentimes people feel really overwhelmed. Like it's like, oh my God, I have to do this whole healing thing. Or, you know, in order to be trans and a trans ally or an ally to anyone, I have to like go March in the Capitol. And it's like, no, dude, just like these small things like that is how change happens. Just these small shifts over and over again consistently, you know, they're like little droplets that eventually make an ocean and then you have this sea change and it's just a beautiful, like, you don't need, you can't get to the ocean all at once, you know?
Speaker 1 00:44:53 Yeah. Yeah. That's the way real change happens slowly. What's happening. Yeah. Do you want to let everybody know where they can find you if they want to do some embodiment work with you? Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:45:11 Yeah. Yes. Well, um, so I am offering listeners, uh, right now this special gift, which are these 20 minute excavate, your desires calls. Um, they're free to you. If you think a lot can happen in 20 minutes, just wait, you'll be amazed. Um, but yeah. And so the purpose of that is like, if, if folks are like, I don't really know what I want or, you know, desires are down there, but you can't really bring them out. That's the whole point is to bring them out and then I help you to come up with at least one way to like, get out of your own way and let yourself have that thing. Cause a lot of us know what we want and then letting ourselves have it as a whole, whole other thing. So, um, yeah, so I'd love to connect with people one-on-one via those calls, um, which you have the link to, and I'm on Instagram at grey Doolin. Um, and folks work with me. I have a group coaching circle and then I have this, uh, intimacy intensive, uh, that I offer one on one with folks right now as well.
Speaker 1 00:46:12 Awesome. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for the work that you're doing.
Speaker 2 00:46:17 Yeah, you are so welcome. Um, I feel really, yeah. I feel really honored to like, to be, yeah. To like be in this lifetime, like come into the world in this identity and in this process to do this work.
Speaker 1 00:46:36 Yeah. You're fucking doing it and you are very, it's like you have all these different while you're at Gemini, but you have all these different paths and you can go to all of them. And it's really interesting to watch because you have access to that. I see that in you and it's really cool.
Speaker 2 00:46:57 Thank you. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:46:59 And so, um, it's cool that you're doing that work and if you have that, if that's you have the gift of doing it, so yeah.
Speaker 2 00:47:10 Thank you. Yeah. It's a very sweet reflection. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:47:15 You're welcome. All right. Well I guess we're going to say goodbye. Um, thank you so much for taking some time out to talk to folks about toxic masculinity and your experience with it and um, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2 00:47:36 Yeah, yeah. You're so welcome. Thanks so much for having me. I really love the so
Speaker 1 00:47:41 All right. Have a good rest of your day. You too. Thank you.
Speaker 2 00:47:47 Bye
